Our thoughts and support are extended out to the families and friends who lost someone today in the name of a god. This is primitive and barbaric behavior.The number of people who have died in the name of a deity is unimaginable. I look forward to watching the human race as it evolves out of the need for religion.
Since 1963, AMERICAN ATHEISTS has been the premier organization laboring for the civil liberties of Atheists, and the total, absolute separation of government and religion.
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This was my first time visiting this web site and I greatly enjoyed it. I am actually still very much “in the closet”. Only my wife is aware of my non-belief. Amazingly she feels the same as I do. So we plan to raise our children to use their powers of reasoning and deduction and decide what is best for themselves. If by chance they grow up and feel a need to believe in a god, then so be it. But I will supply them with all the information possible to contradict any of the nonsense. I realized at an early age that something wasnt quite right about the teachings of my church. Still, I tried to be a good christian and go to church, give my money to the minister (who lived in a much nicer home than mine and wore expensive suits). My breaking point wasnt until I was 25 years old. I was baptized in a church and immidiately afterwards was told by the minister that I had the power to speak in tongues!! I was actually placed in front of the congregation and told to deliver a message from god in an unknown language! So after standing there for oh, 15 minutes or so, the preacher finally said that I just needed to tear down the wall in my mind and accept the gift. My ears was burning from embarrasement and I was sweating profusely. I was horrified. That was the last time I set foot in a church. My family prays for my return and I keep my inner disgust of their religion to myself. That is my story. Im glad to see so many others who would like to see this practice abandoned. Religion was good enough for the caveman, but really, a flood that covered the earth in 40 days would require 11 feet of water per hour!!!
Dagny,
Regarding life?s purpose in our responses to Steve Hanson Thursday; I feel I slighted you with my response addressing life?s purpose as being ?to procreate and continue the species; nothing more, nothing less,? and it being posted after yours, which addressed life?s purpose at a higher, cognitive level. I should have stated in my post that I was addressing life?s purpose at its most basic, fundamental level.
I?m sorry that I stepped on your interpretation without clarifying my statement.
11 feet per hour… I can use that one.
Found this on Webbie Awards.
If the world were a village of 100 people, where yould you fit in.
http://www.worldcitizenguide.com/index2.html
The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think, BTW which one’s Pink?
Hey Tim,
Truth hurts, doesn’t it? I was quite polite, quite fair, and quite correct.
You want me to defend? Fair enough. You should realize that Christianity bears remarkable resemblance to all the other mythologies you dismiss. You should read and think, instead of reading and reacting.
I wrote “You may learn a lot, including the remarkable and predictable similarities between Islam and Christianity. Compare Jihads to Crusades, or the Koran’s “destroy the infidels” to Exodus’ “kill the blasphemers”.
Indeed, you’re exactly the same — religions filled with a broad spectrum of followers, all looking at the same book but finding different passages which justify their actions. How difficult would it be for you to justify mass murder with the Bible?”
And you challenged me to cite? OK. How about Leviticus, when God is speaking to Moses. In Lev 18:22, God tells moses “Thou shalt not lie with man as with a woman. It is an abomination.” This is used as a singular proof that God frowns on homosexuality, and is the bedrock of the anti-gay movement.
THEN IN THE SAME CONTEXT AND IN THE SAME CONVERSTION, Lev 24:16 reads (and the lord spake unto Moses, saying…) “And he that Blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall surely stone him”.
Now, Tim, tell me I was wrong. Tell me it’s out of context (it isn’t). Tell me that this couldn’t be used to justify murder (indeed, it clearly mandates it)!
Then tell me you agree with that line of reasoning. Tell me you agree that I, an admitted blasphemer, deserve to DIE for my crime. After all, it clearly says so in your holy book.
But you can’t. You’re not hateful and you don’t think I deserve to die, do you? Most Christians don’t. Yet many oppose gay rights, based on the shorter passage from the same conversation.
Why? Because I was right. You have a book with lots of passages, and people pick and choose the passages to defend their actions. You could murder me in cold blood, and have the exact same justification as the Religious Right has for opposing gay rights. Scary, huh?
David,
Well, at least I have an answer. You simply appear to be ignorant of the context, meaning, and purposes of the various sections of the Bible.
I don’t use the word ingorant in a pejorative sense. You simply do not know a lot of important things so you end up taking nearly everything you read out of context and ultimately reach incorrect conclusions about Christianity. You aren’t the first and certainly won’t be the last person to do so.
There is no justification in the Bible for murder whether it be one person or thousands. Now it’s obvious that there have been people who have used the Bible, the Koran and other texts in an attempt to justify their actions, but they are no more correct than you are in your mis-interpretations.
Please , enlighten me, Tim, specifically on this issue. I double-dare you.
Please tell me how I lose context. What are these “important things” of which I am ignorant? Perhaps when God says “all the congregation shall surely stone him” he MEANS “can’t we all just get along”
Oh, and didn’t you confirm in your last sentence the very point I was making?
REPEATING…
In Lev 18:22, God tells moses “Thou shalt not lie with man as with a woman. It is an abomination.” This is used as a singular proof that God frowns on homosexuality, and is the bedrock of the anti-gay movement.
THEN IN THE SAME CONTEXT AND IN THE SAME CONVERSTION, Lev 24:16 reads (and the lord spake unto Moses, saying…) “And he that Blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall surely stone him”.
Seems pretty clear to me. I challenge Tim to tell us in what context these lines should be taken. Next he will be trying to convince us the sky is really green. I guess you cold say that the people are gonna stone the guy after he has already been put to death? Seems like a big waste of energy to me. The point is that this is the type of language that crackpots use as justification for terrible deeds. Same as in islam, but you are gonna get that when you let a book tell you what to do and not common sense.
Movie Quote: Dogma(1999)
Bethany: You were martyred?
Rufus: That’s one way of putting it. Another way of putting it would be to say that I was bludgeoned to death by huge fucking rocks.
Ionfield,
I took no offense to your statement. I knew you were referring to the biological purpose of life, while I was referring to the intellectual.
One of the things I learned that really re-affirmed my “conversion” to Atheism was this fact from my college U.S. history class: During the civil war, both the north and the south used the Bible in their defense. The south used it to defend slavery, the north, to reject it. I don’t recall the scripture references they used anymore, but if the same book is so ambiguous and contradictory that it can be taken to mean such opposite things, then it can’t have really been inspired by a perfect, holy deity.
The answer the Christians always give me for those unsavory parts of the Old Testament, where people could be stoned to death for just about anything, is this: punishment by death was okay at that time because that was before Christ came. Stoning people to death for their sins isn’t necessary anymore, because Christ died for everyone’s sins. Now, the homosexuals can ask Christ for forgiveness, instead of being put to death. Also, we don’t need to sacrifice animals anymore, like they did in the old testament, because Christ was supposed to be the ultimate sacrifice for us all.
Of course, if, as the Christians tell me, the old testament doesn’t really apply anymore, not since Christ came, then why is the 10 commandments (also located in the OT) still so important to them? They’re just picking and choosing what parts of the OT they want to follow and what parts they want to ignore.
Exactly Dagny!
The OT is “overturned” by the NT, unless you don’t ant it to be. The NT says “Love thy neighbor” and “Judge not, lest ye be judged”, but gays getting married? Time to break out Leviticus! We still like to judge ‘dem gays!
Want slavery? Check out Exodus! wanna pray just to be seen praying? Don’t read Matthew!
As an aside, I’ve been chided for saying that Atheism is perfect, but this is the perfect time to defend that assertion. EVERY religion has problems like this because EVERY religion is open to interpretation. You can defend love, hate, terrorism, slavery, incest, hard work, and murder using the “perfect word of god”, which is darn imperfect if you ask me.
Can’t do that with Atheism, because it’s not a religion. No dogma, no interpretation. Just good old-fashioned perfect logic. Don’t know an answer? Open a book or google it and make your own judgement. The only thing Atheism will tell you is that all gods are equal and fictional — and there are no flaws there!
David et. al.,
The issue for the non-believer isn’t scripture or the interpretation of it. The issue for non-believers is faith which brings a person into fellowship with God. This, along with the guidance of a teacher, makes it possible to understand the divine Word of God, which is revealed to mankind in the Bible.
I can hear your responses already so save them. I’m not here to teach you scripture. It’s pointless for me to debate the meanings of Biblical passages with people who don’t believe in the first place! I find it interesting that a lot of Atheists seem to be experts on the Bible and quote from it liberally, yet do not believe any of it is anything more than “fairy tales” in the first place!
I’m simply pointing out that you are going down a dead-end path if you think you can understand the Bible without first being a believer.
Tim,
?I find it interesting that a lot of Atheists seem to be experts on the Bible and quote from it liberally, yet do not believe any of it is anything more than “fairy tales” in the first place!?
That just might be because we can tell the difference between reality and fairy tales. Many of us also read other books, both fiction and nonfiction. And we do know when we are reading fiction, a prime example of which is the Bible.
Discover magazine, August 2005, has an interesting article on climate and culture by Robert Sapolsky. He investigates the notion that, knowing the type of climate a group of people lives in, one can make fairly accurate predictions about the cultural practices of the group.
One of the clearer distinctions is between “forest people” and “desert people.” In general, tribes of the rain forests are more polytheistic and focused around core female kinship groups. Tribes of the deserts tend to be monotheistic or have a hierarchical set of gods, and women are more likely to be worked and sold or traded between tribes.
Sapolsky notes that, with their harsher, simpler climate, the desert groups have tended to dominate surrounding cultures in the quest for resources. “As a result,” says the author, “ours is a Judeo-Christian/Muslim world, not a Mbuti-Carib/Trobriand one.”
This perspective may not go far in answering questions about the irrationality of religion in an urban, post-industrial age, but it’s an interesting read.
(This is also posted in the Q and A section but I wanted the response to be here as well to go with Tim’s statement)
Tim,
You have some serious misconceptions about how we approach the bible. I don’t think any of us would deny the ability of the bible to show morality in humans. You don’t have to be a believer, or have a teacher, to understand that. We just don’t see the need to place that morality as being given to us by a god. We don’t have to fear for our lives (or afterlife) in order to be moral. We do so because it makes sense. What goes around comes around. If we do bad things, eventually someone will do bad things to us because of our behavior. If we try to be moral then it is less likely someone will do bad things to us. That doesn’t mean bad things won’t happen anyway, that’s just part of living on this planet. We can’t control everything, but we can learn to understand it using logic and reasoning (science).
The bible IS, after all, a book of stories showing how humans can be moral or amoral of their own free will. So do a lot of fairy tales and other stories throughout history that were written by man. Just like the bible is written by man. (Present tense intended. Does anyone know when the newest version is supposed to come out? I’m anxious to see what changes they made this time.) That’s why we put it in the same category.
It also shows that it was necessary to convince people that there was more at stake for being amoral in order to get them to do the good things. We as humans have evolved past that (some of us anyway). It’s called a better education. To continue believing that everything that happens in our lives is guided by a god is archaic. We have found the answers as to why certain things happen and they don’t involve the hand of god, just natural forces taking their course.
You’re the one who is on the dead-end path because you would rather believe than seek the truth about what is going on all around us. You are stuck in an endless cycle because you refuse to let go of your fears and allow logic and reasoning to show you the truth.
Why is it that those of us who are well read are still so ignorant? I’ve read and studied the Quran and the bible and other scriptures. I guess it’s only reasonable for the true believers to Get It. I was always told to talk to someone else who would set me straight when I had a particularly hard Question. Like, IF both the Quran and the Bible are inspired by God and in fact they both are from the sons of Abraham. Why are the sons of Abraham at war with each other. Why when I have in fact studied both do I still not believe? It has nothing to do with ignorance. I don’t believe because it’s just unbelievable. The idea that the universe is 6,000 years old. We all know the speed of light repudiates this completely. It’s 21,000 light years just to the center of our tiny galaxy. And didn’t god create light on the 3rd day( I guess he had to see what he was doing). And didn’t god declare all plants “GOOD” Why is marijuana illegal in direct opposition to god’s declaration. And didn’t god declare the collection of interest on money loaned to be prohibited. Why do the banking institutions collect interest? And Why do the jewish people refrain from eating pigs while the christians do not. Jesus declared all foods clean but he did not declare all things to be food. If he had why is it never mentioned. Also the best for last. It is written that Jesus came back from the dead and for 40 days performed miracles and taught wondrous things. And not one person had the presence of mind to write any of it down. No specifics as to what these things were?
When I put the test of truth to the bible and quran they both fail. If they are inspired by god why do the belivers rush headlong into murder and war? Why do people of faith have so little faith that they need to kill those of us who simply disagree. The command to stone and kill was only applicable in the towns where the chosen lived(in sufficient numbers to carry out this injunction). What most believers miss is that if they in fact had faith they would not need the govt. they would be sustained by their faith.
I am happy to be part o this community where we as individuals are accepted as we are without qualification. Another interesting observation. If the moslems are so murderous why then don’t they kill us here in the U.S. where we both live in peace. Also there is really no good way to defend ourselves against religionists. They always establish the rules which, like their scriptures, they interpret as they go.Nasa hit the comet last week using science and dead on accurate mathematics. The same science and math that prove evolution and disprove scripture. NO I AM NOT ignorant (even in a non-perjorative way). I for one refuse to be branded ignorant.JIM
Please Tim enlighten me on how I should interpret the scripture properly. Is it written is some secret code where stoning someone to death is something we should all be doing on a sunday with our families, or where discriminating against and repressing someone for their sexuality and gender is a bang up thing to do?
Tim, I am disapointed as a last desperate measure you pulled the belief card. I guess that really answers my question, you have to be not of sound mind to begin with to fully understand the bible.
Christians are usually shocked that I know the Bible as well or better than they do, when there are actually several reasonable explanations for why Atheists knowing the scriptures occurs:
1) Some of us were raised in a certain religion, forced to attend church or Bible classes.
2) The Bible, despite its flaws, is still considered a lasting work of literature, and is read by many for only this reason.
3) The Bible is often studied as a collection of historical documents.
4) The Bible is considered common knowledge; many expressions make reference to it (“the patience of Job,” “as old as Methuselah,” etc.)
Even an Atheist fortunate enough to grow up in a non-believing home where free thought was encouraged, has probably still encountered the Bible in history class, or even in a college literature course. Some of us read it for the sole purpose of being able to discuss/debate it with Christians, or just because we don’t want to be out of the loop. Christians really shouldn’t be so surprised when we can discuss and quote scriptures with them.
I don’t think biblical contradictions, which are based on logic, will have much of an effect on Tim’s faith. If faith were logically consistant, it wouldn’t have any value. Besides, he can dodge any contradiction with that “you have to read it with a faithful heart” nonsense. We all know that Tim can’t possibly explain why he’s not supposed to stone us to death. It will always make sense to him though, because in order to continue living in denial of death, he has to make excuses for the person who transcribed god’s words. God has to say what Tim thinks is right, or he wouldn’t want to believe.
The examples that people posted from Leviticus and the Civil War point to the same thing: official religious doctrine is just not that important, even to religious people. It’s merely a tool that people use to justify their irrational (and sometimes quite unethical) beliefs. Society sets the standard, and religion merely follows along telling people what they want to hear. Religious leaders are raised in the same culture that we are. They often lean toward the conservative side, but all around the world, religous leaders get their values from society, not books.
Look at homosexuality. Christians are slowly starting to accept that it’s probably part of nature and isn’t simply a choice. Churches are beginning to sense that public opinion is turning against homophobia, and some are becoming more tolerant as a result. Did Leviticus suddenly change? Of course it didn’t; we changed. With change, however, comes resistance. Many conservative folks are outraged by the growing acceptance of gays, so they and their churches are becoming more proactively intolerant. That’s why Jesus can never lose. He always plays on both teams.
One last question: what do you think earns more donations, telling people they’re wrong or telling people they’re right?
I got a question. I just read on CNN that “Blair condemns attacks.” What the hell good does that do if someone condemns an attack? Is that the war-time equal to praying for someone? Acting as though you really care and putting responsibility on someone (or someTHING) else to fix it?
JustinW,
The problems isn’t with Biblical contradictions, it’s with the contradictions you think you see in the Bible.
You are simply reading something you don’t fully understand and calling it a “contradiction”, but this doesn’t mean that it actually is.
This is my first post. I’ve been reading here for a few weeks now, so I guess I’ve been silent for long enough…
Tim, I have observed that you use the same argument time and again. That argument can basically be summed up as “There is something superior to reason and perception which explains reality in a more complete way, therefore you atheists don’t understand what I understand.”
I’d like to pose a question or two:
What method does one use to acquire knowledge when reason and perception are removed from the equation? What alternative to the scientific method would you suggest is superior in gathering information about reality?
Funkapotamus,
One of the reasons I’m having to repeat essentially the same argument in different ways is that there are folks here who cannot or simply will not agree to the most basic tenets of any methodology, science or otherwise.
The first one os that it is self-evident that there is a possibility that God exists! To deny even the possibility is not a tenable position. I’ve already answered the question in the negative sense, that of course it’s possible God doesn’t exist! All I hear, though is a deafening silence after I put something like this out for discussion. I wonder why?
To your characterization of my argument, I would only say that I’m not trying to replace reason and perception, but simply point out its limitations when it comes to matters of faith or even of observable phenomena science has simply not been able to explain.
To your last question by way of example: It is possible to acquire knowledge through being taught by a teacher who has considerable knowledge on a subject and can explain the subject matter properly. In the case of the Bible, I’ve been fortunate to have found one of the best Bible scholars alive today.
Finally, I never suggested science wasn’t good at describing what we can observe with our five senses, only that it isn’t always useful for things we ponder on (like how the universe was created) or things that we accept on faith.
Funkapotamus,
That last paragraph I just wrote will certainly get some comments, but I intend to clarify it at length a later on today.
“You are simply reading something you don’t fully understand and calling it a “contradiction”, but this doesn’t mean that it actually is.”
You’ve got me there. I haven’t studied the Bible, and I don’t understand religion at all. Just to clarify, when I said “contradiction”, I only meant that there are phrases in the Bible for which the literal English meanings are in direct opposition to each other. My point was that if people are allowed to interpret passages away from what they literally say, the the Bible is, in my opinion, ambiguous at best and dangerous at worst.
The passage that David posted says that blasphemers should surely be stoned to death. Can you explain your interpretation of that passage and how you arrived at it? My best guess is that the word “surely” makes it mean that we only deserve to be stoned to death, but we should be forgiven anyway (at least until it’s time for us to burn for eternity). Am I close? Please don’t just say that I won’t understand. Even though we have radically different beliefs, I really am interested in what you have to say.
“it is self-evident that there is a possibility that God exists! … All I hear, though is a deafening silence after I put something like this out for discussion.”
In order to break the deafening silence, let me be the first to admit that there is a possibility that God does exist. Do you think there’s a possibility that Allah exists? If so, how big of a chance?
Religionists are typical of using terrorism. The Christians, the Jews and Muslims justify immoral and cruel acts with their religion. Muslims may be in the news now, but it wasn’t too long ago that jewish extremists, the zionists were murdering men, women and children of non-jews in Palestine (actually they still are doing that), kidnapping, bombing hotels, executing and assasinating rivals, etc. (Uh, wait they’re still doing this also).
Most people don’t realize that the jewish terrorist group, Irgun, was later turned into the IDF when Israel was created, which explains alot about the human rights violations of Israel, and the early prime ministers of israel were terrorist leaders in this group who personally murdered and bombed, just like some Muslim extremists are now.
The only recent Christian terrorists have been bombing abortion clinics.
Terrorism, however, is not always religion motivated. It is often a product of assymetrical warfare in which the underdog has to resort to desperate measures to retaliate against a more powerful foe.
As to the possibility of God (capital G), I can say that the possibility of God’s existence is the same as all the other gods (small g) ever invented by man. Is it possible that an all-powerful invisible omnicient superbeing exists, knows everything, and loves everyone? Sure. The same possibility as a big bearded guy with a thunderbolt on Mt. Olympus or a Tikki god made of wood that causes volcano eruptions when angered.
What some Christians dislike most about Atheists is that we don’t grant the Abrahamic “God” any more credence than any other gods. Mythology is mythology, at least to me, and Jesus is no more meaningful than Qetzalcoatl.
Not that it matters…good discussion is good discussion…wasn’t this thread about the terrorist bombings?
Just to stir things up and see what other people here think…
Who else thinks it’s convenient that these “terrorist” attacks always seem to happen at a time when our governments are trying to take away the rights of the people. The UK is facing tough opposition toward some of their proposed “protection” laws. i.e. identification cards and the like.
I don’t believe all the conspiracy theories, but I did find it very strange that all the steel from the WTC was immediately shipped out of the country (to china??) before it could be thoroughly examined by independent experts. Also, they claim they couldn’t find the black boxes from the airplanes (bigger than a shoebox and designed to withstand tremendous forces and fire), but miraculously found a passport supposedly belonging to one of the terrorists on the plane.
I hope this helps liven up the thread.
Scornful Skeptic 3
This one deserves it’s own post.
At “NoGodBlog,”Dave, of American Atheists, says:
Our thoughts and support are extended out to the families and friends who lost someone today in the name of a god. This is primitive and barbaric behavior.
The numbe…
manumit,
All I have to add is that there probably is no American who benefited more from the attacks of 9/11 than pres. Bush.