Our thoughts and support are extended out to the families and friends who lost someone today in the name of a god. This is primitive and barbaric behavior.The number of people who have died in the name of a deity is unimaginable. I look forward to watching the human race as it evolves out of the need for religion.
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I hope you are right, Dave. But, I?m afraid we will not see the human race abandon religion in our lifetimes or anytime in the near future. I think young children are brainwashed with religion and it becomes so ingrained within them that the great majority of them cannot overcome their religious beliefs regardless of the evidence to the contrary.
I fear that the more likely scenario will be the destruction of the human race by religious fanatics. We see the evidence of this every day with Islamic suicide bombers. They are taught to believe that they will immediately go to heaven and be with their god, and at the same time, reserve places there for their families. Even the mothers of suicide bombers give them encouragement to do so and make their families proud of the ?good deed? they will do.
Once self-replicating nanotechnology becomes readily available, in the next 30 to 50 years or so, much like cheap computers are now available everywhere, it isn?t much of a leap for the Islamic religious fanatics to be releasing a form of this technology on the world that will consume all life on Earth. They will have done the ultimate ?good deed? by sending all infidels to hell, or wherever infidels are supposed to go to, and all the ?good? Islamists to heaven to live there in splendor for all eternity.
Bill Joy, cofounder and Chief Scientist of Sun Microsystems, wrote an article titled ?Why the Future Doesn?t Need Us? for Wired magazine that appeared in the April 2000 issue. In it he addressed new technologies like nanotechnology and the resulting dangers facing us in this century. Joy was alarmed and appealed for caution in how these new technologies are developed.
Unfortunately, I believe even if all responsible governments put stringent curbs on these technologies, they will still be developed by rogue governments or groups such as al-Qaeda. I think it is going to take a lot of vigilance to monitor what is going on in developments such as self-replicating nanotechnology because of the threat by religious fanatics.
I am definitely not against new technologies and am, in fact, a strong proponent for technological advancements. And it wouldn?t matter one bit if I or anyone else were opposed to new technology development. It is still going to happen.
What must be controlled is religious fanaticism. What we need now is a ?magic bullet? to bring the religious affected to their senses as they were before being brainwashed with religion. We need to somehow have the insanity of religious belief done away with. We are in the 21st century; there is absolutely no longer a need for mythological religious beliefs.
Okay, Ionfield, are you a doomsayer or just a philosopher?
I think religious fundamentalism will, eventually, fade away. As I’ve said before, the uprising (if you will) of atheists today should serve as evidence that the end is in sight. It means that people’s minds are changing away from the lifestyle that has been mainstream for so many years.
And remember: As dangerous technology makes advances, so does defensive technology.
Finally, I would also like to extend my condolences to everyone affected by the attacks in Britain.
Again god proves he is at best an absentee landlord but, unfortunately, it is in his direction that many turn which only goes to strengthen the delusion. i’m british and have checked with friends in London and thankfully they are ok. i’ve never been a poster but i saw some of your excellent activists – such a strong term for those who know the truth of the universe and yet find entrenched opposition from the powers that be – and felt that this was the place for some thoughts. history has shown that divisions are healed by the removal of that which divides and i only hope that religion will become a museum piece, interesting and part of human development, but ultimately shown to be a hollow promise. god is a construct that,in millenia gone by, we used to understand who we were and why we are here. religion is in a position of denial but continues to toe the same tired line. belief works for many millions but it is actually the triggering of self belief and motivation that brings results. as Dawkins said, if all that brainpower involved in prayer were to be focussed on problems such as aids, poverty and global warming, we would harness billions upon billions of research hours. it is, however, a free world – for most – but i would dearly love to see the day that followers become leaders and take their families, communities and countries into a brighter age, free of dogma and the paradox of hate and intolerance practised in the name of what is holy. many mistake the bond between people and place as evidence of a higher existence which is transferred by sacred lineage. this link needs,not to be attacked for this strengthens, but to be gradually eroded until it becomes ineffectual at which point the truth will be obvious for all to choose. our freedom is as important as any and what we could achieve would be a quantum leap. we would not live in a less colourful world but it would be a lot more peaceful. keep up the good work. Dave UK
“I think religious fundamentalism will, eventually, fade away”
Obviously you just don’t get it. One does not have to believe in a deity or deities to be religious. Religion is at it’s most basic component, a world view. Now I am very surprised to see athiests show such compassion for such an event as this. Your religion says that life has no purpose or meaning and that we are reorganized stardust, yet these victims lives of this horrible event all of a sudden have value? Talk about hyprocrocy! I realize events such as this give people like you an opportunity take shallow jabs at all people who put there faith and hope in god, but please don’t equate islam to christianity as so many ignorant people do. Mohammad’s actions were the direct opposite of those of christs.
I also get quite irritated at those who mock creationism. Ones belief in life’s divine origins is not going to retard their learning in biology and genetics. Either way, if I believe in darwinism or creationism, it is not going to effect my learning on how the human body works and how cells divide, and how to prevent (or kill) cancer. This is just another tactic used by evolutionary zealots to try and scare the gullable public into stearing clear of the subject.
I don’t know why I’m even wasting my
time typing this because I am sure it will get deleted. Otherwise flame me, I don’t care.
Steve Hanson
PE, Structural Engineer.
sethsim,
I don?t consider myself to be a philosopher or a doomsayer, that is, under normal circumstances. But when it comes to religion and the future of humankind, I tend to be a bit pessimistic. I hope you also are right and religious fundamentalism, and the irrational fanatics, do eventually fade away. I fear, though, that we are running out of time and the fanatics will win.
Although, religion in Europe is fading, it seems to me that in the U.S. there has not been too great a change over the last few decades. And if there has been a change, it may be illusory. Many years ago when I was young, atheism was pretty much in the closet. Now as atheism is becoming more accepted (I think), atheist are coming out and declaring their atheism.
So whether there are less religionist now (in the U.S.) than there used to be I?m not so sure. Also it seems that Islam is a fast growing religion. I don?t have specific data on any of this and I?m too lazy to look it up right now.
When it comes to religion, we cannot passively sit back, put our heads in the sand and be optimistic and hopeful that everything is going to just work out. Religion is not a benign concept. Religion has proven itself through the ages to be very evil and dangerous and its radical followers not hesitant to kill in the name of a god. In fact, there are passages in the Bible and the Koran that tell its followers it is their duty to kill nonbelievers. Religion is not the kind, peaceful organization it is made out to be.
With new technologies around the corner, religious fanatics will have devastating means at their disposal to wreak all kinds of havoc. Radical Islamic ideologies may come from the Dark Ages, but they are quick to latch onto and make use of new technologies.
I really don?t know if there is anything we can do about it, but I feel we must somehow be proactive and not go through life with blinders, letting religion consume us.
Finally, I believe that the great majority of the religious are well intentioned, just deceived and misinformed. It?s the radical few that are truly dangerous, and it only takes one to do great damage.
We never said that life has no meaning or purpose. For most of us, the purpose of life is simply to live it to its fullest, or, “Life is its own reward.” For me, the purpose of my life is to pursue a worthy vocation/career, one that is satisfying to me and helps others at the same time. So some of us find and define our own meaning of life. We feel compassion for others too, and we are tired of seeing so many atrocities occur, in the name of some god. Not everyone who believes in a god is a terrorist; but enough believers have done terrible things in the name of god to warrant our concern.
Hi Steve,
Welcome to the world of rational reality.
You may be surprised to see atheist express compassion, but that is quite the norm rather than an exception. We are compassionate, we care about others, we care about the world, and we are quite moral, we just don?t share some of your morals, e.g., where a god is concerned.
You also have a misconception about atheists having a religion. We simply have a disbelief in gods; no more, no less. True, we are reorganized stardust, but we do have a purpose, like all life on Earth, and that is to procreate and continue the species; nothing more, nothing less.
Hypocrisy is virtually nonexistent in atheism. But hypocrisy runs rampant in religion, i.e., those Christians that on a daily basis disobey the Ten Commandments to which they are supposedly committed, or Islamists disobeying the teaching of the Koran.
Also, we do put a lot of credence in evolution. It is one of the most well established principles of science, whereas creationism has absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support it.
Being a professional engineer, you obviously are an intelligent person. Why do you believe in your god even though there is no evidence to support your belief and yet there is a mountain of evidence to support science that contradicts what your religion teaches?
ionfield,
You are a better person than I am. When a ridiculous remark like: ‘Your religion says that life has no purpose or meaning and that we are reorganized stardust, yet these victims lives of this horrible event all of a sudden have value?’ is made I can’t even respond, I tend to assume that there is no way to deal with ignorance and shy away.
I also agree that we will not see the human race abandon religion in our lifetimes or anytime in the near future. World population has doubled in our lifetime and practically ALL of the increase has been in the poor ‘developing’ countries where religious fanaticism is most prevalent. Even in the civilized world, religious conservatives do and always have had more children than the non-religious.
I am afraid that, by sheer weight of numbers, we will shrink away. I hope I’m wrong.
SteveRHanson, who better to realize and respect the sanctity of life than an atheist? Someone who believes that the life we have right now is all there is, and that there is no imaginary afterlife to go to. It seems that religious people who believe that they will be rewarded by their invisible man in the sky by destroying the infidels, the heretics, or not “not suffering witches” to live are the ones with the extreme lack of respect for life. How many people does god tell the Israelites it’s OK to wipe out in the bible? And then in your response you play the game of my god is better than the Muslim god. I guess if you realize that you come from a tradition that has no respect for life, I guess I couldn’t call you a hypocrite. But you certainly can’t say that about any of the atheist here.
Hello all,
I’m new to posting, but have been reading here for a few weeks. Lot’s of great discussion, on very important topics.
joelwe,
You’re forgetting one of the most important aspects of being an atheist. Evolution. I hope the fact that we are increasing our population, at an ever increasing rate, will only serve to further our evolution away from theistic beliefs. Just look at the number of people in here who once believed in a god and now are non-believers. Several even grew up in religious households. That makes me feel good to know people have the intelligence to look beyond and find the truth for themselves despite the attempted brainwashing they endured growing up.
ionfield,
Well put. You deserve a round of applause for what you said to Steve. He obviously has no clue what an atheist is, just what theist groups keep force feeding him. We are compassionate because that is human nature, and has nothing to do with a belief in a god. Bravo!
manumit,
Right, but one of the ways evolution works, those that propogate the fastest overwhelm the rest. I feel the world population of theists grows at a faster rate than that of atheists. Rational people make rational decisions about how large a family they can provide for, irrational folk tend to breed out of control. Everyone I ever met in the U.S. that had a family of 5 kids or more were very devout christians or jews and in Muslim and Hindu countries they crank ‘em pretty fast too.
jolewe,
I think you reasoning is flawed. Like I said, there are plenty of examples in this forum of people who grew up in a religius family and still had the intelligence to seek the truth. This is happening more and more throughout the world. With the advent of the internet, the only true free press, people are becoming more exposed to new ideas and theories. This can only serve to increase our numbers, regardless of how many are born into religious families. Never underestimate a persons free will to think for themselves.. I myself grew up in a “moderate” religious family, but even at an early age I was questioning a lot of things that just didn’t make sense. Have more faith in the evolution of human intelligence. Our desire to seek knowledge and understanding will be the downfall of theistic beliefs. Why do you think religions try so hard to stifle free thought. They know that, if given the chance, people will seek and find true knowledge and ultimately cast aside such preposterous beliefs. One thing I keep hearing from religion that always gets me, is when they say “We are just to stupid to understand, so there is no reason to seek the truth, just have faith in god.” (paraphrasing) As more information comes available, this rhettoric will hopefully die out. We can and do understand more about everything around us every day. We just need to be strong in our convictions that even though we don’t yet understand something, with experimentation and trial and error, we will understand.
Sorry to carry on, but doubt only serves those who want you to believe it’s not possible. It is possible, we just have to keep seeking the truth.
manumit,
You are talking about a small number of individualistic thinkers who have naturally gravitated to this website thru a common bond. I’m talking about the millions, no billions of people allcaround the world who seem to want religion whether they have it forced on them or not. For every story like your own, I know of some ‘born again’ that went the other way.
I still think we are losing. But I still want to win.
This has been a real tragedy.I think we are seeing the results of good policing in that this was a relativly small attack. Maybe the message that killing other people for one’s own god is wrong has been getting through.Now to comment on Steve hanson’s BS. The first thing that such people do is define words to their own liking so that their comments can be validated.
#1 Religion is ;the belief in and worship of a god or gods, a particular system of faith and worship.Not what you wrote.You are either lying or ignorant.I do not believe, and it has no basis in fact as to my “World view”
#2 I am not religious but I do have compassion for my fellow man and that includes Islam Christian Buddist Hopi Inca, what do I care It’s all the same to me.I am not bigoted by church affiliation as are you.Your christ say’s turn the other cheek,You do not.
#3:You put darwinism with creationism.First for your information its evolution not darwinism,keep the ism’s to yourself.Again you redefine what you can defend by your scurrilous accusations that in fact have no basis in reality.You try but fail in making us into something we are not.
#4You reveal so much about your poor line of reasoning in so few words I think we should give you a trophy or something.If you believe that what you wrote is accurate then you need to begin reading the dictionary a bit more.More likely you have been indoctrinated in that particular line o thinking. The line of thinking of Liars, Swindlers, Thieves, Who are all forgiven if they just say those magic words,I believe
#5 I have no fear of you steve. Your people are doomed because of your inability to discern the truth.You are not forgiven when you know the way of obtaining the truth but fail to do so and instead make it up just like those who came before you.
#6 You also reveal your paranoia thinking that you will be flamed. you truly do not know the freedom of dialog that we have here with our host Dave.You believe you are correct. You are not.While we welcome this discourse I wonder if you would be so kind?
#7 It is your religions that are at war in the world Jewish Islam Christian.All from the same blood line.Last time I checked there were no atheists out to make war with you, however it is you and your kind who are making war.Not us.
Dave keep up the good work.Jim
Hi Steve,
Your posts are welcomed here (just be nice).
You may learn a lot, including the remarkable and predictable similarities between Islam and Christianity. Compare Jihads to Crusades, or the Koran’s “destroy the infidels” to Exodus’ “kill the blasphemers”.
Indeed, you’re exactly the same — religions filled with a broad spectrum of followers, all looking at the same book but finding different passages which justify their actions.
How difficult would it be for you to justify mass murder with the Bible?
Thanks for the feedback everyone!
David,
Comparing Christianity to Islam in the manner you just did requires either ignorance of the true nature of both faiths or willful disregard of the facts.
I am appalled, but not surprised at your remarks. You apparently don’t know the first thing about the history of Islamic aggression and conquest which lead to the crusades. You are equally ignorant of the differences and the context of Biblical and Koranic passages you “cite” as well.
You know, it’s a funny thing… I haven’t noticed any fundamentalist Christians flying loaded 767’s into buildings lately. Interesting isn’t it that there are 15 active conflicts around the globe where Islamic fundamentalists can’t seem to get along with their neighbors and are eagerly committing murder in the name of Allah.
What do you think this says?
David,
One more thing. Have I not been respectful of the beliefs (and non-beliefs” of others here?
Have I equated Atheists such as yourself to mass murderers who were also Atheists? You know the answer.
So I find your comments above not in the spirit of “just be nice” as you asked us to be. I find your comments insulting, but fortunately for you I am not an Islamic fundamentalist. They would slit your throat, shoot you dead, or blow you into thousands of bloody pieces if you dared to insult them.
I am a Christian, therefor I forgive those who “trespass against me” as the prayer goes. I forgive, I do not judge.
I don’t think it’s fair to equate Islamic fundamentalism to modern day Christianity. You could compare it to Christianity in the days of the Inquisition, Crusades, Salem witch hunts ect….
Most Xtians I know today are nice folk, I don’t know ANY personally who preach violence. Now the premise of their beliefs and those of Islam are equally ridiculous as is the idea of either religion having a scripture that is more valid then the other.
It’s the LEADERS of Islam that are more dangerous than Xtian leaders of today. The reason I think is that the Islamic leadership stems from parts of the world where everyone is Muslim and no competition exists. Christian leadership resides in America and Europe primarly where populations are more diverse. The greatest benefit of diversity is that no one group can gain too much power so the Pat Buchanans, Pat Robertsons and all the rest cannot acheive the strength of an Ayatollah, a Saddam or the Taliban.
By diluting power thru diversity, the individual is left with more freedom and liberty.
Tim,
Although, you directed your missives at Dave, I would like to offer my two bits (cents are no longer what they used to be).
You may not have ??noticed any fundamentalist Christians flying loaded 767’s into buildings lately,? but I have noticed a fundamentalist, Christian president, George W. Bush, sending 130,000 U.S. troops into a sovereign country to eliminate an Islamic regime (although, led by a ruthless dictator) under the guise of a ?War on Terror.? When Bush pretty much abandoned the real war on terrorism by shifting from Afghanistan, where Osama bin Laden and the real terrorists were, to Iraq, he became just another murdering Christian crusader.
Regarding, ?Have I equated Atheists such as yourself (David) to mass murderers who were also Atheists?? Perhaps the reason you haven?t is that atheist mass murderers are virtually unheard of; whereas, Christian mass murderers are typical for those committing mass murder. But then, all they have to do is say, ?Father, I have sinned, please forgive me,? or profess that, ?Jesus is my Lord and Savior,? and all is well for them.
So, Tim, you are saying that you select from your Word of God Bible that which you chose to obey. You ?? forgive those who ?trespass against me??” but you don?t obey the passages of Deuteronomy where you are ordered to kill those who are blasphemous toward your god. That seems convenient.
Radical Islamists, by no means, have a monopoly on annihilation of humankind. The Rapture (from Matthew, Luke, Thessalonians, and Corinthians) and End Times (from the book of Revelation) just may become self-fulfilling prophecies brought to us by radical, fundamentalist Christians. Then all the repenting to Jesus believers get to spend eternity in a blissful paradise; while the rest of us get to spend eternity in Hell after enduring horrible deaths.
Isn?t religion wonderful?
Tim
Perhaps we haven’t seen xtians flying airplanes into buildings, but we HAVE seen them put bombs in ireland, shoot doctors in the US,
or what about a certain leader who is religious that proclaimed that he consulted with God before attacking a sovereign country?
Let’s not forget that the 20th century’s most infamous dictator wasn’t muslim but a good ‘ol (german) christian.
Yes, uncle Adolph was a practicing Catholic (who somehow believed in a variation of evolution, one that was corrupted to suit his own needs).
Does it even matter what religion the terrorists subscribe to? If the Middle East was full of Christians, there might have been Christians (don’t worry they wouldn’t be “real Christians”) flying planes into buildings. With the aid of the magic word “context”, you can make either ancient holy text say whatever the heck you want. If context can make passages that say to kill all the non-believers not mean that you’re supposed to kill the non-believers, it should be a snap to make those same passages mean that you ARE supposed to kill them.
Even though religion plays an important role in many, many unnecessary deaths, let’s not forget that religion isn’t the only culprit. In the case of yesterday’s tragedy, there are cultural, political, and economic factors as well. Powerful men with completely secular agendas have long used religious propaganda to control the weak-minded. Many within the religion see these men for the manipulators they are, but far too many do not. Religion is certainly part of the problem, but eliminating it from the equation would not change the fact that these people want to hate us and will listen to any BS that allows them to do so. Even if the terrorists were Atheists, they might have done it to punish the believers.
Um, wasn’t there a group of fundies who recently wanted to blow up the dome on the rock because they felt it would usher in the second coming? And wasn’t the group Timothy McVeigh was part of a christian group? Or Jim Jones with his Kool Aid? Aren’t most white supremacist groups fundie christian, including the KKK who were responsible for how many murders and bombings. And the whole mess in Northern Ireland, due to two competing Christian groups. None of that needs to look too far back into history to find people using the bible to justify their violence. Sure, there are lots of christian groups that have done good work also, but when people base their worldview on irrational nonsense, its no wonder they eventually do irrational things. Doesn’t matter if you are christian or muslim, they’re more alike than dislike.
Good discussion. The reason you do not see christians bombing buildings is the simple fact that they rule the most powerful countries in the world. Terrorism is the tactic of the desperate and not very effective most of the time. Christians do not use suicide bombers because christians have great armys. The terrorist would love to have the military resources of the U.S. They would quit the suicide bombing that day. That is part of their fear of us. They know who is holding all the cards. They know the christians have a better military, better economy, better universities, better technology. They fear the west.
I have heard plenty of christians preach violence. I have heard them preach hate. Watch the 700 club any day of the week. American christians are too fat and lazy to be terrorist. You only get a few wacko’s shooting at doctors. I think they would behave diffrently in a third world country. They would kill whoever the preacher asked.
jshanewhit
My sympathy to those affected in London.
Having read the Bible.. unlike the rest of my so called believing family, I’m pretty sure Jesus wouldn’t be all that afraid of terrorism as he wasn’t too worried about the Romans. All you had to do was believe in him and everything would turn out OK. Of course believing in him was a full time job. If someone was hungry you better damn well get them some food. Being lukewarm in the cause was a one way ticket to hell. Stuff yourself on pizza and don’t invite the homeless man in … straight to hell. Western materialism–>straight to hell. War and Jesus…are you kidding me?
The church has tried to morph Christianity into something easy and “feel good”, but the real Christianity started out as a way to earn bonus points for suffering and sacrifice(because what else are you going to do with Romans around everywhere kicking your ass.)
From the movie Dogma(1999)
Rufus: What He really hates is the shit that gets carried out in his name. Wars. Bigotry. Televangelism.
Bethany: You’re saying that having beliefs is a bad thing?
Rufus: I think it’s better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier.
As long as we are a free country, we will have people who exert that freedom to question old saws like religion. As long as we are a free people we will be the enemies of dictators and cultural leaders who base their premises on faith. We may advocate their freedom to believe what they will, no matter how mistaken it is, they will not allow to us, in their own advocacy the right to think as reason dictates. Their cultural dominance will enable them to discredit and misrepresent any enemy as “the devil” or “satan.” How can you reason with religious schizophrenia? You can’t, you just make note of its existence and move on your own path. The question is, how long will we be a free people?
According to Mr. Carotta in “Jesus was Caesar,” there is a compelling argument that Jesus was a Roman named Caesar. Also check “Caesar’s Messiah” by Joseph Atwill, an excellent read. http://insmkt.com/RomanOriginofChristianity.htm
Remember too the percentages. There is a lot more muslims than christians on the face of the planet, as a matter of fact Christians are a very small percentage. I’m not suprised that we don’t hear of rouge christian groups performing acts of terriorism, this doesn’t mean that the capability is not there though.
Several good points have been bought up one being that the use of terror is a desperate measure by desperate people to try and level the playing field by attacking the civilian population when it comes to conflict. I think charlie B said it best.
“but when people base their worldview on irrational nonsense, its no wonder they eventually do irrational things”
p.s. Anyone watch the Live8 concerts, I couldn’t believe my eyes Pink Floyd back together after 21 years. Maybe there really is a god…. Just Kidding.
I have just mulled over another point that was touched upon in this thread and I had to get it off my chest. I think that you can draw parallels between the extrema of the muslim and christian faiths. What pisses me off is when a terriorist act is performed by a christian he/she is not labeled a terrorist. It seems as always that when an issue deals with the christian faith that it is handled more, for lack of a better word, “compassionately”. I feel sorry for people who are muslims as somehow they have become second class citizens because of the actions of a few who subscribe to some form of perverted islam.
The same cannot be said about the christian faith as it is covered in teflon.
Seems unfair to me.
I hope Pink Floyd performing together is a sign of things to come. They are one of the very few band that have their own distinct sound and style, as well as some very powerful lyrics.
This was my first time visiting this web site and I greatly enjoyed it. I am actually still very much “in the closet”. Only my wife is aware of my non-belief. Amazingly she feels the same as I do. So we plan to raise our children to use their powers of reasoning and deduction and decide what is best for themselves. If by chance they grow up and feel a need to believe in a god, then so be it. But I will supply them with all the information possible to contradict any of the nonsense. I realized at an early age that something wasnt quite right about the teachings of my church. Still, I tried to be a good christian and go to church, give my money to the minister (who lived in a much nicer home than mine and wore expensive suits). My breaking point wasnt until I was 25 years old. I was baptized in a church and immidiately afterwards was told by the minister that I had the power to speak in tongues!! I was actually placed in front of the congregation and told to deliver a message from god in an unknown language! So after standing there for oh, 15 minutes or so, the preacher finally said that I just needed to tear down the wall in my mind and accept the gift. My ears was burning from embarrasement and I was sweating profusely. I was horrified. That was the last time I set foot in a church. My family prays for my return and I keep my inner disgust of their religion to myself. That is my story. Im glad to see so many others who would like to see this practice abandoned. Religion was good enough for the caveman, but really, a flood that covered the earth in 40 days would require 11 feet of water per hour!!!
Dagny,
Regarding life?s purpose in our responses to Steve Hanson Thursday; I feel I slighted you with my response addressing life?s purpose as being ?to procreate and continue the species; nothing more, nothing less,? and it being posted after yours, which addressed life?s purpose at a higher, cognitive level. I should have stated in my post that I was addressing life?s purpose at its most basic, fundamental level.
I?m sorry that I stepped on your interpretation without clarifying my statement.
11 feet per hour… I can use that one.
Found this on Webbie Awards.
If the world were a village of 100 people, where yould you fit in.
http://www.worldcitizenguide.com/index2.html
The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think, BTW which one’s Pink?
Hey Tim,
Truth hurts, doesn’t it? I was quite polite, quite fair, and quite correct.
You want me to defend? Fair enough. You should realize that Christianity bears remarkable resemblance to all the other mythologies you dismiss. You should read and think, instead of reading and reacting.
I wrote “You may learn a lot, including the remarkable and predictable similarities between Islam and Christianity. Compare Jihads to Crusades, or the Koran’s “destroy the infidels” to Exodus’ “kill the blasphemers”.
Indeed, you’re exactly the same — religions filled with a broad spectrum of followers, all looking at the same book but finding different passages which justify their actions. How difficult would it be for you to justify mass murder with the Bible?”
And you challenged me to cite? OK. How about Leviticus, when God is speaking to Moses. In Lev 18:22, God tells moses “Thou shalt not lie with man as with a woman. It is an abomination.” This is used as a singular proof that God frowns on homosexuality, and is the bedrock of the anti-gay movement.
THEN IN THE SAME CONTEXT AND IN THE SAME CONVERSTION, Lev 24:16 reads (and the lord spake unto Moses, saying…) “And he that Blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall surely stone him”.
Now, Tim, tell me I was wrong. Tell me it’s out of context (it isn’t). Tell me that this couldn’t be used to justify murder (indeed, it clearly mandates it)!
Then tell me you agree with that line of reasoning. Tell me you agree that I, an admitted blasphemer, deserve to DIE for my crime. After all, it clearly says so in your holy book.
But you can’t. You’re not hateful and you don’t think I deserve to die, do you? Most Christians don’t. Yet many oppose gay rights, based on the shorter passage from the same conversation.
Why? Because I was right. You have a book with lots of passages, and people pick and choose the passages to defend their actions. You could murder me in cold blood, and have the exact same justification as the Religious Right has for opposing gay rights. Scary, huh?
David,
Well, at least I have an answer. You simply appear to be ignorant of the context, meaning, and purposes of the various sections of the Bible.
I don’t use the word ingorant in a pejorative sense. You simply do not know a lot of important things so you end up taking nearly everything you read out of context and ultimately reach incorrect conclusions about Christianity. You aren’t the first and certainly won’t be the last person to do so.
There is no justification in the Bible for murder whether it be one person or thousands. Now it’s obvious that there have been people who have used the Bible, the Koran and other texts in an attempt to justify their actions, but they are no more correct than you are in your mis-interpretations.
Please , enlighten me, Tim, specifically on this issue. I double-dare you.
Please tell me how I lose context. What are these “important things” of which I am ignorant? Perhaps when God says “all the congregation shall surely stone him” he MEANS “can’t we all just get along”
Oh, and didn’t you confirm in your last sentence the very point I was making?
REPEATING…
In Lev 18:22, God tells moses “Thou shalt not lie with man as with a woman. It is an abomination.” This is used as a singular proof that God frowns on homosexuality, and is the bedrock of the anti-gay movement.
THEN IN THE SAME CONTEXT AND IN THE SAME CONVERSTION, Lev 24:16 reads (and the lord spake unto Moses, saying…) “And he that Blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall surely stone him”.
Seems pretty clear to me. I challenge Tim to tell us in what context these lines should be taken. Next he will be trying to convince us the sky is really green. I guess you cold say that the people are gonna stone the guy after he has already been put to death? Seems like a big waste of energy to me. The point is that this is the type of language that crackpots use as justification for terrible deeds. Same as in islam, but you are gonna get that when you let a book tell you what to do and not common sense.
Movie Quote: Dogma(1999)
Bethany: You were martyred?
Rufus: That’s one way of putting it. Another way of putting it would be to say that I was bludgeoned to death by huge fucking rocks.
Ionfield,
I took no offense to your statement. I knew you were referring to the biological purpose of life, while I was referring to the intellectual.
One of the things I learned that really re-affirmed my “conversion” to Atheism was this fact from my college U.S. history class: During the civil war, both the north and the south used the Bible in their defense. The south used it to defend slavery, the north, to reject it. I don’t recall the scripture references they used anymore, but if the same book is so ambiguous and contradictory that it can be taken to mean such opposite things, then it can’t have really been inspired by a perfect, holy deity.
The answer the Christians always give me for those unsavory parts of the Old Testament, where people could be stoned to death for just about anything, is this: punishment by death was okay at that time because that was before Christ came. Stoning people to death for their sins isn’t necessary anymore, because Christ died for everyone’s sins. Now, the homosexuals can ask Christ for forgiveness, instead of being put to death. Also, we don’t need to sacrifice animals anymore, like they did in the old testament, because Christ was supposed to be the ultimate sacrifice for us all.
Of course, if, as the Christians tell me, the old testament doesn’t really apply anymore, not since Christ came, then why is the 10 commandments (also located in the OT) still so important to them? They’re just picking and choosing what parts of the OT they want to follow and what parts they want to ignore.
Exactly Dagny!
The OT is “overturned” by the NT, unless you don’t ant it to be. The NT says “Love thy neighbor” and “Judge not, lest ye be judged”, but gays getting married? Time to break out Leviticus! We still like to judge ‘dem gays!
Want slavery? Check out Exodus! wanna pray just to be seen praying? Don’t read Matthew!
As an aside, I’ve been chided for saying that Atheism is perfect, but this is the perfect time to defend that assertion. EVERY religion has problems like this because EVERY religion is open to interpretation. You can defend love, hate, terrorism, slavery, incest, hard work, and murder using the “perfect word of god”, which is darn imperfect if you ask me.
Can’t do that with Atheism, because it’s not a religion. No dogma, no interpretation. Just good old-fashioned perfect logic. Don’t know an answer? Open a book or google it and make your own judgement. The only thing Atheism will tell you is that all gods are equal and fictional — and there are no flaws there!
David et. al.,
The issue for the non-believer isn’t scripture or the interpretation of it. The issue for non-believers is faith which brings a person into fellowship with God. This, along with the guidance of a teacher, makes it possible to understand the divine Word of God, which is revealed to mankind in the Bible.
I can hear your responses already so save them. I’m not here to teach you scripture. It’s pointless for me to debate the meanings of Biblical passages with people who don’t believe in the first place! I find it interesting that a lot of Atheists seem to be experts on the Bible and quote from it liberally, yet do not believe any of it is anything more than “fairy tales” in the first place!
I’m simply pointing out that you are going down a dead-end path if you think you can understand the Bible without first being a believer.
Tim,
?I find it interesting that a lot of Atheists seem to be experts on the Bible and quote from it liberally, yet do not believe any of it is anything more than “fairy tales” in the first place!?
That just might be because we can tell the difference between reality and fairy tales. Many of us also read other books, both fiction and nonfiction. And we do know when we are reading fiction, a prime example of which is the Bible.
Discover magazine, August 2005, has an interesting article on climate and culture by Robert Sapolsky. He investigates the notion that, knowing the type of climate a group of people lives in, one can make fairly accurate predictions about the cultural practices of the group.
One of the clearer distinctions is between “forest people” and “desert people.” In general, tribes of the rain forests are more polytheistic and focused around core female kinship groups. Tribes of the deserts tend to be monotheistic or have a hierarchical set of gods, and women are more likely to be worked and sold or traded between tribes.
Sapolsky notes that, with their harsher, simpler climate, the desert groups have tended to dominate surrounding cultures in the quest for resources. “As a result,” says the author, “ours is a Judeo-Christian/Muslim world, not a Mbuti-Carib/Trobriand one.”
This perspective may not go far in answering questions about the irrationality of religion in an urban, post-industrial age, but it’s an interesting read.
(This is also posted in the Q and A section but I wanted the response to be here as well to go with Tim’s statement)
Tim,
You have some serious misconceptions about how we approach the bible. I don’t think any of us would deny the ability of the bible to show morality in humans. You don’t have to be a believer, or have a teacher, to understand that. We just don’t see the need to place that morality as being given to us by a god. We don’t have to fear for our lives (or afterlife) in order to be moral. We do so because it makes sense. What goes around comes around. If we do bad things, eventually someone will do bad things to us because of our behavior. If we try to be moral then it is less likely someone will do bad things to us. That doesn’t mean bad things won’t happen anyway, that’s just part of living on this planet. We can’t control everything, but we can learn to understand it using logic and reasoning (science).
The bible IS, after all, a book of stories showing how humans can be moral or amoral of their own free will. So do a lot of fairy tales and other stories throughout history that were written by man. Just like the bible is written by man. (Present tense intended. Does anyone know when the newest version is supposed to come out? I’m anxious to see what changes they made this time.) That’s why we put it in the same category.
It also shows that it was necessary to convince people that there was more at stake for being amoral in order to get them to do the good things. We as humans have evolved past that (some of us anyway). It’s called a better education. To continue believing that everything that happens in our lives is guided by a god is archaic. We have found the answers as to why certain things happen and they don’t involve the hand of god, just natural forces taking their course.
You’re the one who is on the dead-end path because you would rather believe than seek the truth about what is going on all around us. You are stuck in an endless cycle because you refuse to let go of your fears and allow logic and reasoning to show you the truth.
Why is it that those of us who are well read are still so ignorant? I’ve read and studied the Quran and the bible and other scriptures. I guess it’s only reasonable for the true believers to Get It. I was always told to talk to someone else who would set me straight when I had a particularly hard Question. Like, IF both the Quran and the Bible are inspired by God and in fact they both are from the sons of Abraham. Why are the sons of Abraham at war with each other. Why when I have in fact studied both do I still not believe? It has nothing to do with ignorance. I don’t believe because it’s just unbelievable. The idea that the universe is 6,000 years old. We all know the speed of light repudiates this completely. It’s 21,000 light years just to the center of our tiny galaxy. And didn’t god create light on the 3rd day( I guess he had to see what he was doing). And didn’t god declare all plants “GOOD” Why is marijuana illegal in direct opposition to god’s declaration. And didn’t god declare the collection of interest on money loaned to be prohibited. Why do the banking institutions collect interest? And Why do the jewish people refrain from eating pigs while the christians do not. Jesus declared all foods clean but he did not declare all things to be food. If he had why is it never mentioned. Also the best for last. It is written that Jesus came back from the dead and for 40 days performed miracles and taught wondrous things. And not one person had the presence of mind to write any of it down. No specifics as to what these things were?
When I put the test of truth to the bible and quran they both fail. If they are inspired by god why do the belivers rush headlong into murder and war? Why do people of faith have so little faith that they need to kill those of us who simply disagree. The command to stone and kill was only applicable in the towns where the chosen lived(in sufficient numbers to carry out this injunction). What most believers miss is that if they in fact had faith they would not need the govt. they would be sustained by their faith.
I am happy to be part o this community where we as individuals are accepted as we are without qualification. Another interesting observation. If the moslems are so murderous why then don’t they kill us here in the U.S. where we both live in peace. Also there is really no good way to defend ourselves against religionists. They always establish the rules which, like their scriptures, they interpret as they go.Nasa hit the comet last week using science and dead on accurate mathematics. The same science and math that prove evolution and disprove scripture. NO I AM NOT ignorant (even in a non-perjorative way). I for one refuse to be branded ignorant.JIM
Please Tim enlighten me on how I should interpret the scripture properly. Is it written is some secret code where stoning someone to death is something we should all be doing on a sunday with our families, or where discriminating against and repressing someone for their sexuality and gender is a bang up thing to do?
Tim, I am disapointed as a last desperate measure you pulled the belief card. I guess that really answers my question, you have to be not of sound mind to begin with to fully understand the bible.
Christians are usually shocked that I know the Bible as well or better than they do, when there are actually several reasonable explanations for why Atheists knowing the scriptures occurs:
1) Some of us were raised in a certain religion, forced to attend church or Bible classes.
2) The Bible, despite its flaws, is still considered a lasting work of literature, and is read by many for only this reason.
3) The Bible is often studied as a collection of historical documents.
4) The Bible is considered common knowledge; many expressions make reference to it (“the patience of Job,” “as old as Methuselah,” etc.)
Even an Atheist fortunate enough to grow up in a non-believing home where free thought was encouraged, has probably still encountered the Bible in history class, or even in a college literature course. Some of us read it for the sole purpose of being able to discuss/debate it with Christians, or just because we don’t want to be out of the loop. Christians really shouldn’t be so surprised when we can discuss and quote scriptures with them.
I don’t think biblical contradictions, which are based on logic, will have much of an effect on Tim’s faith. If faith were logically consistant, it wouldn’t have any value. Besides, he can dodge any contradiction with that “you have to read it with a faithful heart” nonsense. We all know that Tim can’t possibly explain why he’s not supposed to stone us to death. It will always make sense to him though, because in order to continue living in denial of death, he has to make excuses for the person who transcribed god’s words. God has to say what Tim thinks is right, or he wouldn’t want to believe.
The examples that people posted from Leviticus and the Civil War point to the same thing: official religious doctrine is just not that important, even to religious people. It’s merely a tool that people use to justify their irrational (and sometimes quite unethical) beliefs. Society sets the standard, and religion merely follows along telling people what they want to hear. Religious leaders are raised in the same culture that we are. They often lean toward the conservative side, but all around the world, religous leaders get their values from society, not books.
Look at homosexuality. Christians are slowly starting to accept that it’s probably part of nature and isn’t simply a choice. Churches are beginning to sense that public opinion is turning against homophobia, and some are becoming more tolerant as a result. Did Leviticus suddenly change? Of course it didn’t; we changed. With change, however, comes resistance. Many conservative folks are outraged by the growing acceptance of gays, so they and their churches are becoming more proactively intolerant. That’s why Jesus can never lose. He always plays on both teams.
One last question: what do you think earns more donations, telling people they’re wrong or telling people they’re right?
I got a question. I just read on CNN that “Blair condemns attacks.” What the hell good does that do if someone condemns an attack? Is that the war-time equal to praying for someone? Acting as though you really care and putting responsibility on someone (or someTHING) else to fix it?