Our thoughts and support are extended out to the families and friends who lost someone today in the name of a god. This is primitive and barbaric behavior.The number of people who have died in the name of a deity is unimaginable. I look forward to watching the human race as it evolves out of the need for religion.
JustinW,
The problems isn’t with Biblical contradictions, it’s with the contradictions you think you see in the Bible.
You are simply reading something you don’t fully understand and calling it a “contradiction”, but this doesn’t mean that it actually is.
This is my first post. I’ve been reading here for a few weeks now, so I guess I’ve been silent for long enough…
Tim, I have observed that you use the same argument time and again. That argument can basically be summed up as “There is something superior to reason and perception which explains reality in a more complete way, therefore you atheists don’t understand what I understand.”
I’d like to pose a question or two:
What method does one use to acquire knowledge when reason and perception are removed from the equation? What alternative to the scientific method would you suggest is superior in gathering information about reality?
Funkapotamus,
One of the reasons I’m having to repeat essentially the same argument in different ways is that there are folks here who cannot or simply will not agree to the most basic tenets of any methodology, science or otherwise.
The first one os that it is self-evident that there is a possibility that God exists! To deny even the possibility is not a tenable position. I’ve already answered the question in the negative sense, that of course it’s possible God doesn’t exist! All I hear, though is a deafening silence after I put something like this out for discussion. I wonder why?
To your characterization of my argument, I would only say that I’m not trying to replace reason and perception, but simply point out its limitations when it comes to matters of faith or even of observable phenomena science has simply not been able to explain.
To your last question by way of example: It is possible to acquire knowledge through being taught by a teacher who has considerable knowledge on a subject and can explain the subject matter properly. In the case of the Bible, I’ve been fortunate to have found one of the best Bible scholars alive today.
Finally, I never suggested science wasn’t good at describing what we can observe with our five senses, only that it isn’t always useful for things we ponder on (like how the universe was created) or things that we accept on faith.
Funkapotamus,
That last paragraph I just wrote will certainly get some comments, but I intend to clarify it at length a later on today.
“You are simply reading something you don’t fully understand and calling it a “contradiction”, but this doesn’t mean that it actually is.”
You’ve got me there. I haven’t studied the Bible, and I don’t understand religion at all. Just to clarify, when I said “contradiction”, I only meant that there are phrases in the Bible for which the literal English meanings are in direct opposition to each other. My point was that if people are allowed to interpret passages away from what they literally say, the the Bible is, in my opinion, ambiguous at best and dangerous at worst.
The passage that David posted says that blasphemers should surely be stoned to death. Can you explain your interpretation of that passage and how you arrived at it? My best guess is that the word “surely” makes it mean that we only deserve to be stoned to death, but we should be forgiven anyway (at least until it’s time for us to burn for eternity). Am I close? Please don’t just say that I won’t understand. Even though we have radically different beliefs, I really am interested in what you have to say.
“it is self-evident that there is a possibility that God exists! … All I hear, though is a deafening silence after I put something like this out for discussion.”
In order to break the deafening silence, let me be the first to admit that there is a possibility that God does exist. Do you think there’s a possibility that Allah exists? If so, how big of a chance?
Religionists are typical of using terrorism. The Christians, the Jews and Muslims justify immoral and cruel acts with their religion. Muslims may be in the news now, but it wasn’t too long ago that jewish extremists, the zionists were murdering men, women and children of non-jews in Palestine (actually they still are doing that), kidnapping, bombing hotels, executing and assasinating rivals, etc. (Uh, wait they’re still doing this also).
Most people don’t realize that the jewish terrorist group, Irgun, was later turned into the IDF when Israel was created, which explains alot about the human rights violations of Israel, and the early prime ministers of israel were terrorist leaders in this group who personally murdered and bombed, just like some Muslim extremists are now.
The only recent Christian terrorists have been bombing abortion clinics.
Terrorism, however, is not always religion motivated. It is often a product of assymetrical warfare in which the underdog has to resort to desperate measures to retaliate against a more powerful foe.
As to the possibility of God (capital G), I can say that the possibility of God’s existence is the same as all the other gods (small g) ever invented by man. Is it possible that an all-powerful invisible omnicient superbeing exists, knows everything, and loves everyone? Sure. The same possibility as a big bearded guy with a thunderbolt on Mt. Olympus or a Tikki god made of wood that causes volcano eruptions when angered.
What some Christians dislike most about Atheists is that we don’t grant the Abrahamic “God” any more credence than any other gods. Mythology is mythology, at least to me, and Jesus is no more meaningful than Qetzalcoatl.
Not that it matters…good discussion is good discussion…wasn’t this thread about the terrorist bombings?
Just to stir things up and see what other people here think…
Who else thinks it’s convenient that these “terrorist” attacks always seem to happen at a time when our governments are trying to take away the rights of the people. The UK is facing tough opposition toward some of their proposed “protection” laws. i.e. identification cards and the like.
I don’t believe all the conspiracy theories, but I did find it very strange that all the steel from the WTC was immediately shipped out of the country (to china??) before it could be thoroughly examined by independent experts. Also, they claim they couldn’t find the black boxes from the airplanes (bigger than a shoebox and designed to withstand tremendous forces and fire), but miraculously found a passport supposedly belonging to one of the terrorists on the plane.
I hope this helps liven up the thread.
Scornful Skeptic 3
This one deserves it’s own post.
At “NoGodBlog,”Dave, of American Atheists, says:
Our thoughts and support are extended out to the families and friends who lost someone today in the name of a god. This is primitive and barbaric behavior.
The numbe…
manumit,
All I have to add is that there probably is no American who benefited more from the attacks of 9/11 than pres. Bush.
Let’s not forget about Dick(head) Haliburton/Brown & Root Cheney. I hope they nail everyone of them for their crimes. Both against the American people and humanity. Even if 9/11 was completely executed by terrorists. (Yeah right!) Politicians on both sides of the aisle have raked in tons of money because of that horrible tragedy.
I personally feel that money should be completely removed from the election process and lobbying. The only money a politician should every receive is the salary they get for their position. Elections shouldn’t be won on the amount of money a candidate raises. They have given themselves enough raises. Being a public servant no longer exists. It’s all about the money.
Oh, your company wants to push a drug that is sketchy in clinical trials? Just make sure you donate to my campaign. Your organization wants to make billions issuing the latest whatever for national security? Just make sure you donate to my campaign. Where is the justice for buying favors in the government?? We will never see these criminals brought to justice. They are all part of the same party. The greenback party.
FYI- Republican…Democrat… It doesn’t matter. They are all criminals for taking money for favors. I bleong to the AMERICAN party! And I hope the rest of the country will eventually wake up from the SUV driving, latest trend buying, american idol watching stupor and go after these people. The power belongs to the people NOT the governement.
Instead of pushing intellegent design, and prayer, in the public schools; we should be pushing for constitutional education, as soon as a child can read, and for the remainder of their schooling. If you look at some recent survey’s about people’s knowledge of the constitution, it’s more than scary, it’s horrifying. No wonder people let these criminals get away with it. They don’t have a clue!
Sorry to go on about this. I just hope something happens soon, so we can take back our governement.
As far as I’m concerned, religion seems like the driving force behind every terrorist attack. Muslims attach bombs to themselves and blow people up in whatever nation is pissing them off, the Ku Klux Klan (a group of extremely devout Christians) lynch African-Americans in the name of the bible, pro-lifer shoots abortion doctor and plants 50 pipe bombs inside a planned parenthood clinic for Jesus, etc. When will it ever stop?
Would anybody on here tell a little girl or boy let’s say 5 years of age that if one of their parents died they would never see them again in heaven? That once they died that’s it.
To: J1974 [Member]
You presume that the 5 year old has already been told that there is a heaven and hell. Humans are born without a belief in heaven or hell. A child must be indoctrinated into a cult to believe this sort of stuff.
Your question reveals that you presume that atheists would want to pick a philosophical fight with a 5 year old. No response is necessary to this presumption.
No one knows what happens after death, not one stitch of evidence has ever been documented. Why, in the absence of any evidence, would you fabricate a lie to tell to anyone about such a serious matter?
There is nothing wrong in the least with telling children the truth in language that is age appropriate for them to understand. For my six year old, she has always surpassed any expectation of comprehension I have ever had about the most serious of issues.
Regarding Tim’s email:
I have heard atheists admit readily that there is a possibility that a god or gods exist. I remember Steven Hawking admit just such a thing even as he explained the creation of the universe from about 3 seconds after the big bang and onwards.
I think you are trying to replace reason with faith. It appears you don’t understand the nature of intellectual curiosity and honesty. You see, there is no need to jump to a fabricated answer to a question whose answer evades you. Intellectually honest people who when dealing with a question whose answer evades them will leave the question unanswered. There is no need to resort to superstition. To do so only reveals that you are afraid. That may have been acceptable in the dark ages but the age of enlightenment began 300 years ago. Wake up people!
To learn from an expert on the bible will make you more of an expert on the bible and nothing else.
To your last point: I think you are confusing science and logic. You should try and apply logic to the tenets of your faith. Then think about the things people used to take on faith that logic and science have revealed:
-The earth is a rectangular-shaped object(Ezekiel 7:2, Revelation 7:1)
-Rain falls out of the sky through windows(Genesis7:11)
-There is a mountaintop from which one could view the entire surface of the earth(Luke 4:5)
-Hares chew the cud, like cows(Lev.11:6)
-Mental illness is caused by devils(Luke 8:27-30)
-A virgin can be impregnated by a ghost, and remain a virgin (Matthew 1:23;Luke 1:35)
-Joseph had two biological fathers (Matthew 1:16,Luke3:23)
-Insects have 4 legs (Lev.11:21-23)
-People and animals can live and remain healthy for 6 months inside a sealed vessel that has no ventilation(Genesis7:11-8:5)
-Unicorns really do exist(deuteronomy 33:17)
-Dragons really do exist(Deuteronomy 32:33;Jeremiah 51:37)
-Castration is a good thing to have done to yourself(Matthew 19:12)
-Some infants can talk the moment they are born (Psalm 58:3)
-It is possible for a man to be older than his father(2 Chronicles 21:20, 22:2)
-Snails melt as they crawl along(Psalm 58:8)
-Circumcision can be undone(1 Corinthians 7:18)
-The value of pi is exactly 3(1 Kings 7:23)
-A vessel measuring 450 feetx75feetx45feet is large enough to contain a pair of every species of animal (and 7 of each “clean” species) plus enough food to sustain them for a year (Genesis 6:15,19,21)
-From late Friday afternoon til dawn on Sunday morning is 3 days and 3 nights (Matthew 12:40).
J1974
“Would anybody on here tell a little girl or boy let’s say 5 years of age that if one of their parents died they would never see them again in heaven? That once they died that’s it.”
Imagine a 5 year believing that their dead parents might have gone to hell, to suffer eternal torments. Imagine a 5 year old living in fear of going to hell for every little mistake they make.
When I was a child religion inspired fear in me. Not comfort.
go above to razorskiss.net scornful skeptic 3
when do you think those guys will come down off their crosses
Mass crusifixion anyone???
I BET IF YOU WERE ABOUT TO CRASH IN AN AIR PLANE YOU WOULD BE PRAYING TO GOD. You all expect life to be full of roses all the time.
J1974,
That’s a bet you’d loose. Having been in a few life threatening situations I know I am more inclined to crap my pants and consider my options than to crap my pants and pray.
J1974: No matter how lousy my life gets, no matter if I perceive the end of my life, I won’t be groveling, thank you very much.
Begging is so unseemly.
Monty Python’s The Holy Grail:
“STOP GROVELING! I’M SO SICK OF ALL OF YOU GROVELING ALL THE TIME!”
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