Yes folks, it’s Summer Vacation time here at the Silverman Household. For me, July 4 is the most important holiday of the year — commemorating the beginning of a country without a state church. I usually try to see 2 or three sets of fireworks, and I NEVER stand for “God Bless America”. If people mention it, I explain that you’re only supposed to stand for the National Anthem.American Atheists has great T-shirts that have the American Flag and the saying “Proud to be an American Atheist”. Great shirt this time of year. Food for thought.What does Independance Day mean to you? I’ll read your posts when I get back next week. From all of us at American Atheist, have a great holiday!
Independance day means grilling food on the barbeque and having my wife drag me out to some municipal fireworks display when I’d rather stay in the A/C and watch it on TV. (I’m definately an inside dog.)
The dictionary I have defines Independence as “freedom from control or influence of another or others”
As an Ex-Active Duty Marine, Independence Day reminds me of the ideals that this country was founded upon, and the ideals which I enlisted to protect.
For myself, this would include (but not limited to) the freedom from religion.
http://www.passionoftheatheist.com
As an honorably discharged Navy guy I do think back to my Navy days but now I generally see anytime away from work as an opportunity to spend quality family time. Probably bbq and a few fireworks. If they play god bless America at the festivities I will insert godless America.
The birth of America
A time to have pride in our country. Also, to celebrate the freedom to have independence from religion that we don’t want.
Uh…it means all that righteous, freedom-from-religion stuff everyone else said, but mostly cheap fried dough at local fairs.
Call ‘em screwed priorities, but that’s damn good fried dough.
Speaking about patriotism …
Bush’s speech tonight was pathetic … asking American soldiers to patriotically put their lives on the line in Iraq for freedom when during the Vietnam War he cowardly hid from a similar call.
What a puke.
I think of how great America is in the grand scheme of things. In another country I may never have been introduced to free thought and science. I do agree that Bush is a puke. Clinton went to school and avoided the draft for moral reasons. Bush’s family supported the war but thought it was a place for the poor americans to fight in. They pulled strings to keep their spoiled brat out of gunfire. I find that unethical. But we are in Iraq and we can’t leave so I will support our troops who risk their lives daily. Does anyone know how to get athiest millitary personel e-mail addresses. I think we should all send them our thanks for keeping the faith in dificult circumstances.
jshanewhit
Fourth of July is my favorite holiday (I actually own one of those tall Uncle Sam hats). I like the fact that while in many other countries, Atheists (or anyone who disagrees with that country’s particular religion) are persecuted, tortured, killed, asked to leave the country, etc., but here, I’m free to be an Atheist, even admit this publicly, and suffer few negative consequences. I hate it when people assume Atheists are un-patriotic; that couldn’t be further from the truth.
What gets my blood boiling, is the people who think that since I don’t approve of us being in Iraq it means that I don’t support our military. Being honorably discharged from the Army in ‘04, I almost went over there. I was called up one day and on a plane within 24 hours heading to Ft. Snelling, only to find that they already had too many of my MOS (i.e. job) on active duty. I was sent back home but I was on call until I got my discharge, which came three months AFTER my end of service date. Needless to say, my wife and I were a bit nervous. I have nothing but respect for those of us who are willing to volunteer our lives to our nation, but I have no respect for our current president.
I recently received an e-mail regarding a hearing to decide whether the theory of Intelligent Design should be taught along with the theory of Evolution. This hearing was taking place in Kansas and the author had written a letter to Kansas?s school boards expressing his opposition to this proposal. He is encouraging others to write letters as well.
This made me think of an alternate proposal for teaching the theory of intelligent design in public schools that may suit atheists as well. Why not promote this idea with one added requirement? If christians want their latest modification to their theory of a supernatural being taught alongside evolution, why not require that both theories be taught to children from birth through adulthood? Imagine the theory of evolution being taught in Sunday schools and day care centers across America.
If this could be done in a way that assured both theories were presented with equal validity I am confident that we atheists would soon see our numbers grow exponentially. Of course, not unlike christians we would have to invent some stories about evolution that appealed to children. Something like the baby Darwin is born in a manger and visited by three genuine wise men of science. Or an arch built by Darwin upon which were placed one of every animal and after forty days and forty nights a complete new set of species emerge from the arc. But I don?t know. It seems a shame to have to lie to children to get them to believe your theory.
If this idea were taken seriously, as I doubt it will, I am inclined to believe that christians would soon drop their demands for teaching intelligent design in public schools.
Fair is fair right? Christians want access to our children in the public schools to promote their religion then we should demand access to their children in private schools to teach them right from wrong.
littlefrank,
I’ve thought that too. ID wants the alleged weaknesses of evolution taught. Fine, let’s teach what is not science in science class. The global flood, Noah’s Ark, creating humans from dust and ribs, 6000 yr old earth, raising from a tomb after 3 days, talking bush, immaculate conception,etc.
Independence Day has a whole new meaning for me as an atheist. Of course it is a celebration for the birth of the USA. I wholeheartedly support our troops but not our leader.
Independence Day reminds me I now enjoy mental independence. I have no sacred cows. I have nothing that I must shelter from scrutiny. I think independently and decide on my own about every issue according to what evidence I can obtain.
I’m grateful I can do this in our great country without being arrested or stoned to death. If I had lived in a different place and time, I would surely have been punished for my views.
We still have a long way to go. In my small religious community there are still ramifications for speaking the A words: Apostate. Agnostic. Atheist. I’m alone from the bulk of my community but I’m independent and grateful for it.
I hate it when Independence Day falls on “the Sabbath.” That is when I really see people fighting over the pecking order of religion over patriotism. I just want to make sure they don’t become the same thing.
littlefrank,
I say teach em both. This way people are left to choose their own direction. My guess is you’ll end up with something similar to what we have now, a minority of atheists, a bigger group of devout religionists and an even bigger group of people who go along with whatever they think will just make themselves happy and aren’t real concerned with whatstrue or makes sense.
Most people believe because they want to, not because something makes sense. For many the reality of no God is more than they care to deal with. Our biggest concern isn’t others seeing our point of view, I believe that we are relegated to exist as a minority forever. We should simply be worried about our rights and keeping theocracy at bay.
Atheists are “relegated to exist as a minority”? I think not. For hundreds, even thousands, of years everyone was devoutly religious. In ancient Greece, the definition of an “atheist” was merely a pagan, worshipping non-mainstream gods. Atheists barely existed in the numbers that we do now.
The modern uprising of free thought should serve as evidence that religion’s reign is coming to and end. It may take a while, but the fact that groups like American Atheists, and web sites like this, exist is proof that something is changing.
Sethsim,
Begging to differ, the internet gives us the appearance that many atheists abound because we are all on the same forum. In my everyday life I know very few admitted atheists.
Also you cannot teach freethinking, that is a quality that a person either has or doesn’t. Its not the same as regurgitating something you learn in school. If all schools taught atheism and all students accept it, that is not freethinking, its just obeying.
Do you concede that there are more atheists now than, say, 500 years ago?
Atheism isn’t a way of teaching, it’s just a lack of religious teaching. We just need to eliminate religious indoctrination of children so that kids aren’t biased towards (a particular) religion, and can make their own decisions.
Hello fellow atheists,im a new member .Its great to know that there are a lot of people who think.What the 4th of July means to me is skiing,kneeboarding,and having fun with family,because after all as the great Bill Hicks said:
All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration,
we are all ONE conciousness experiencing ourselves subjectively, there is NO such thing as death ,life is a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves.
thanks for reading ,have a safe holiday and remember the brain knows no reason for being
why, i always thought i was just a figment of my own, twisted imagination.
I don’t know if there are more atheists now. It may be that there were plenty of non believers in ye olden days but the punishments were greater (ie: the inquisition, salem witch hunts, etc..) and everyone was just afraid to question.
I do definitely concede that it is safer to be an atheist today.
You would think that the simplest way to make someone see that christianity is bogus is to ask if Adam and Eve had Cain and Able (both men) where did we come from?INCEST?
diablo2012,
You don’t even have to go back as far as Adam and Eve. After the Noah flood, only his family was left so we are the incestuous ancestors of them. (Don’t ask how all the different colors and strains of humanity today were able to diversify in only a few thousand years). For that matter all the animals today are the result of incest after the flood.
YES that is true joelwe ,but i thought i would start at the begining to save them some time.One other thing no one seems to think about is why would there be a GOD that makes it necessary that life feeds on life .Something has to die for something else to live,it makes no sense why we have to eat,although i do love good food.thanks for letting me rant,im gonna love this site
have faith in the good book!
I’ve often thought that the more prevalent the concrete results of science are in one’s society the more one is forced to confront the conflict between science and religion. With our Ipod’s, CD’s, internet, XM radio’s and the like it’s hard to continue to live in denial of the supremacy of science, intellect and reason.
For example, I’ve always thought that when forced to confront the conflict of science and religion people will inevitably go down one of four paths whether they are conscious of it or not. They are as follows:
1: live in denial(live in a bubble).(My mother-in-law does this)
2: Accept the historical/metaphorical nature of religion.(I did this for a while)
3: Go absolutely crazy insane trying to take the written word literally.(plenty of examples of this, Waco, Jonestown, mothers ripping their babies arms off, etc.)
4: Reject religion entirely.
There are plenty of examples of each of these types in every society.
Possibly most important of all though is the prevalence and supremacy of the concept of a secular constitution in the world such as the example first set by the US. As the world becomes a smaller place and remote religious cultures like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan are forced to accept the dominance of such ideologies I think we are seeing the result of their coming to terms with it. Some live in denial, some go crazy, and others accept it.
I truly believe the less religion there is in the world, the better place this will be. July 4th represents to me, a huge step in this direction in my opinion.
As someone from Qu?bec our national holiday is june 24, St-Jean Batiste day. (ok, named after a saint, but it’s lost any religious meaning looong ago)
I’m pretty sure it means the same to me as the 4th of july means to you:
As a people, remembering where you came from, the road you’ve travelled so far, and talking about what kind of future you’re trying to build… All while having a nation wide party!
Oh and Jim, you mentionned Saudi Arabia being “forced to accept the dominance of such ideologies” but sadly, apostasy is still punished by death over there.
diablo2012,
Right. In nature everything pretty much eats everything else and the higher animals all suffer, feel fear and pain like us only without the ability to understand and express it. If this is the design of a ‘magic man in the sky’, I’d say he’s a pretty mean one.
This Independence Day I?m taking the time to reflect on how far we?ve come, rather than how far we have yet to go. For example:
This August will mark the 85th anniversary of the 19th amendment to the constitution, giving women the right to vote.
?Separate but equal? was ruled unconstitutional 51 years ago, the Civil Rights Act was signed in 1964, and the Voting Rights Act in 1965.
It was 40 years ago this month that married couples were granted the legal right to birth control by the Supreme Court.
Privacy laws protect us from prosecution for a host of things still illegal in many states, including: adultery, fornication, cohabitation of unmarried couples, and sex acts between consenting adults. Privacy laws were the basis for the Roe v. Wade decision as well. (NOW does the erosion of our privacy make you nervous?)
There is reason to hope as we look beyond our nation?s boarders. Canada recently approved a law allowing gay marriage (I think I saw some Republicans having strokes). Only 11% of French people consider religion important. Roughly 80% of people in industrialized countries consider Darwin?s theory of evolution correct (compared with only 45% of Americans ? most of the rest believe in creation ? amazing but true).
This country was almost immeasurably different 50 years ago, think of what the next 50 years will bring. After all, religious leaders said that women?s suffrage would tear up the fabric of the American family and ruin society. They said the same thing about birth control. They?re saying the same thing about several things today. They haven?t been right once, and that argument hasn?t yet stemmed the tide of change.
sword_strike said:
“…apostasy is still punished by death over there…”
I’m sorry, I overstated. I believe it would be accurate to state that generally speaking, on a personal level people who are religious in nature in the middle eastern societies are forced to deal with the prevalence of the fruits of succesful scientific inquiry. I surmise that they then deal with the success of such ideologies whether they are conscious of it or not.
I am a recent immigrant to the US from Canada (1999). I am raising my American born children here as atheists and proud Americans. I am proud of my Canadian heritage but value the distance from my extended and very Catholic family. I think my circumstances have provided me the opportunity to value the US constitution more than most of my neighbors here in the US.
Since this country has been turned topsy-turvy during the past 4+ years, maybe we should hang our flags upside down.
ummm i agree with that dude.above me.
Independence Day = Wasted holiday.
At least it’s a paid day off of work.
4th of July–around here in central Texas this can mean only one thing–the annual God and Country Concert hosted by the 1st Baptist Church of Belton. The holy-rollers rent out the Bell County Expo Center (+/- 5K capacity) and sponsor a concert featuring their chior singing the best of patriotic and Christian music. On center stage you will find the Christian flag (didn’t know they had one until I saw it with my own eyes) and a giant (10′) Jesus X (cross). They pass KFC chicken buckets around to the concert goers and ask for donations. At first glance this would seem like a good way to celebrate the 4th if you are a member of the faithful, but there is a catch. Each year the Church requests and recieves support from the 4th Infantry Division Band (an Army Band supported by your tax dollars) from Ft Hood to perform as a backup band for this Baptist fund raiser. Uniformed Bandsman perform during this concert, and soldiers from post participate as well, I don’t know if it is on a volunteer basis or not. In past years the grand finale was soldiers in Class A uniforms genuflecting before the giant Jesus X on cue. This obvious violation of the 1st ammendment continues on an annual basis, this year it will be the 1st Cav Division performing as 4th ID is preparing for another tour in Iraq. I performed in this concert (under protest) in the past and there is enough praying and holier than thou attitude there to make a thoughtful person puke. This use of an Army Band has been deemed legal by JAG on FT Hood, so it will continue. There are some atheists in the Army Band that have made protests about the content of the Concert, which pretty much fall on deaf ears. This year I will be enroute to my next duty assignment, so I get a reprieve from the nonsense this year. The point is that atheists should not have to perform religious rituals to serve our country as an Army musician, and the holy rollers are using our tax dollars to promoter their narrow religious views–
I have to disagree on ?You can not teach Atheism?. As you bring up your children, teach them to use their minds. Teach them that Faith is a belief in something where there is no proof (which is what most religions consist of today, especially Christianity, Judaism, and Islam). Show them that most Atheists are good and honest people. Show them where most religions teach an intolerance to others. Show them that most religions were and are still used for controlling people. Show them that these religions were created thousands of years ago by primitive people. Explain to them that these religions were created by people that thought the earth was flat, had no clue what the stars were, and had no concept of any of the sciences that we take for granted today.
Answer their questions honestly. My daughter asked me what happens after you die. I told her, ?I don?t know, and no one truthfully knows. We have ideas and hopes, but nobody has really died and returned to tell us what is on the other side. It is the final one way door we all will go through someday just like all the people before us. Most religions try to answer that question but their answers are based on nothing but Faith. My ?Faith? is that if you live a good life, whatever is on the other side (if anything) will not be a bad thing. Your goal should be to make the world you live in now, a better place.? She accepts that.
For me the 4th is a day to remember three things.
1: the ideals this nation was founded on.
2: the men and women who have died; voluntarily and involuntarily, to defend those ideas, even in wars that didn?t.
3: the enormous potential a nation founded on such liberal ideals has, though yet unfulfilled, and my ongoing commitment towards realizing that potential.
Lux Ferre
http://www.saffirepassafist.blogspot.com
Hey,
Happy Independence Day, Americans. Just some well-wishes from a Singaporean.
Indendence day does not truly mean the birth of our country to me. This day, I truly feel we should reflect on what we have accomplished as a nation, both good and bad, and use that knowledge from the past to help determine our own future. Of course, it would be good to do this all the time, but that isn’t likely in the near future. In my mind, our country isn’t completely born, but is still developing into the a place where we can all be free.
To me, Independence Day is the day that we can celebrate our freedoms as Americans. Though I am not patriotic at all to the “president”, or congress for that matter, I am very, very patriotic to the Constitution and everything it stands for. I wish US politicians would go back to the real issues istead of forcing every public school and building to force their ten commandments and “values” on us atheists. People forget that politics and religion were very seperate from each other up until the past 25 years or so. A politician’s religion used to be trivial, now it seems like it’s the only reason they get voted into office in the first place. Bush was only “elected” again because churches got all their members to vote and told them that the only issue worth their vote was abortion. War, terrorism, and the economy were not important to them; only the beliefs of their pastor.
That brings me to something else that you may already know: the USA is in NO WAY FORMED ON JUDEO-CHRISTIAN VALUES. Washington, Jefferson, and others were Deists, not Christians or Jews as the religious right will tell you. They only tell you that because they don’t want religious symbols removed from public places.
So, to me, Independence Day is about the wonderful Constitution and the people who would die for it, not the people who run the country itself.
How ironic, a holiday celebrating breaking away from a tyranny and a tyranny running American Atheists sponsoring a blog on the subject being censored by a “Jew” with the president of the organization having a sexual relationship with a “jew infiltrator” who is running the organization into the ground.
Oh yeah, you can have freedom of religion, freedom from religion, but NEVER EVER say anything that criticizes Judaism or Jews, not even if you’re an Atheist organization that claims to educate people on all religions. If you were to actually promote freethough and free speech, irrational bigots and racists will call you an “Anti-semite” (it doesn’t even mean jew)and project their own bigotry on you while claiming to be a victim.
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