In Kentucky, the court has ruled that the 10 Cs cannot be placed in courtrooms or schools , but left wiggle room if they are part of a larger display with a primarily secular message. On the other hand, the Texas 10 C on government property, a 6-foot tall slab with words was allowed to stand because it was more of a “museum piece”, and didn’t have a totally religious nature. I don’t get it either. All in all, it could have been a very bad day — it turned out OK. We got a clear message that 10 Cs with the intent of pushing religion is not allowed — that’s good. On the other hand, huge religious monuments can stay, and we have no direction in the broader issues. The subject will come back again.ADDENDUM: Assoc. Press — Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists, from Parsippany, NJ, speaks in front of the Supreme Court in Washington, in opposition to displays of the Ten Commandments in government buildings and courthouses, Monday, June 27, 2005. She is flanked by opponents, Peggy Birchfield, left, executive director of the Religious Freedom Coalition, and at right by David W. New, attorney for Faith and Action. (AP Photo/J. Scott Applewhite)
While the 10C ruling wasn’t what I had hoped for either, I think we can all agree that the extreme hypocrisy of the bible makes it a poor “life manual”.
Ok Tim, I sent the email yesterday and am still waiting for biblical justification for nationalism, war, and capital punishment.
TXatheist,
In addition to sending you a couple of links. I’ll find some specifics to point you to the passages as best I can.
I’ll try to send these later today.
No links. I have wasted my time on such things before in the past only to remain correct on an issue. Please just post the biblical passage(s) that justify war, nationalism and capital punishment.
Tim,
A few quotes for you to consider when regarding the issue of ‘Separation of Church and State’ (from our Founding Fathers):
?I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.? ? Thomas Jefferson (In his letter to the Danbury Baptists)
“The United States ‘is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion’” – Treaty of Tripoli (written in 1796 under George Washington?s presidency, and signed under John Adams presidency)
“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.” ? John Adams (In a letter to Thomas Jefferson)
?The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.” ? Abraham Lincoln
So, based on the above, do you think our founding fathers iintended to have The Ten Commandments as the foundation of our legal system?
And now an absurd quote to consider -
“The idea that religion and politics don’t mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country.” Rev. Jerry Falwell
http://www.passionoftheatheist.com
TXatheist,
I think that you have a good idea. If I can I would like to give a litlle money. I don’t have much but I can give a little.
chas05,
Thanks for the thought. I’ve already hit a roadblock. According to the state preservation board legislation must be passed in order for a statue to be put considered to be put at the Capitol. Then funding must occur. My representative….John Carter. The rep who introduced the bill to preserve “under god” and “in god we trust” with a Constitutional amendment. I’ve already met the Democrat contender for the 2006 election so there is hope for me.
Tim said:
“…It’s unfortunate that a small minority of people have chosen to attack something that, like it or not is an integral part of our Western Culture, specifically free nations.
The antithesis of free nations is socialism and especially communism which seeks to substitute the state for God. In my opinion this is an evil to be fought wherever it rears its head. Unfortunately for the United States, it is being celebrated and instituted here seemingly at every turn…”
The antithesis of free nations is in fact some form of divinely inspired dicatatorship and not Socialism or Communism which you suggest.
The antithesis of socialism is capitalism. Communism is an extreme example of socialism. On the other hand Orwellian Corporatism is the extreme version of Capitalism. The logic of your statement quoted above equates “free nations” with Orwellian Corporatism. Not a good thing by my estimation. I would argue that the ideal free nation would be a balance of Socialism and Capitalism. America is just such an example, as is Canada, all of the western European nations and many others. The balance of power is the key. It would be partisan to pigeonhole someone into such an extreme position when in fact it is logical and patriotic to check and balance the party in power.
Often I hear the partisan right making the condescending statement that the left are “communists”. This is a hideously ignorant statement to make and says more about the state of mind of the person who utters it than anything else. It reveals the ignorance and/or the depth of deceit the said person is willing to stoop to. To check and balance the opposition is American, patriotic and should be encouraged on both sides. If our government is left unchecked by the “communists!” then we are truly threatened with the loss of the freedom that defines us.
Tim, you are wrong. I’ve waited long enough. Acts 25:11 notes that if Paul has done anything that deserves the death penalty he will accept it. Go to Lev and you won’t find mention of capital punishment for nationalism but for ridiculous things like working on the Sabbath and cussing at your parents. As far as war, Paul again in Rom 12:18 where he says”If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men”. My point is simple. The bible does not mention as you said it does. You may interpret a different way but as I said before, you can’t pick up the bible and try to understand it.
What I find funny about this whole situation is that the list of ten commandments commonly cited (the one posted by David Silverman above) is never actually called “the Ten Commandments”. The only list of ten laws ever called the Ten Commandments in the Bible (at least my bible-an NIV version) is much more absurd (absurder?). It goes as follows:
(Exodus 34:10-28)
10 Then the LORD said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the LORD, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. [a] 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
15 “Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.
17 “Do not make cast idols.
18 “Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.
19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.
“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.
21 “Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.
22 “Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year. [b] 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.
25 “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.
26 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.
“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
27 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant?the Ten Commandments.
(end of passage)
Yes, the last commandment is “Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.” Is that part of the foundation for American law?
BillL,
you make an excellent point about not being able assume any part of the bible is correct. The books that were included were voted upon by a group of people who i’m sure you and I would not find to be “holy”. Simply a group of people who knew of problems in society, and found a way to fix them(religion). I asked my father(a very religious man about this problem), his anwswer, “you just have to have faith in the good book”. He really has no answer. I wish that all people of this day and age had the logic to reject religion as worthless social altering garbage. ANYWAY, NO RELIGION WHAT SO EVER SHOULD BE SUPPORTED BY OUR GOVERNMENT.
I’m all for studying history. Knowledge is always preferable than ignorance. This goes for studying religions. I think that if Christianity was studied more in objective history classroom settings from a realistic, rational perspective, support for it would erode much quicker.
I certainly wouldn’t object to placards of the “10 C’s” on government property if the intention was without a doubt to portray our history. Especially if the entire Mt. Sinai speech of “God” to Moses was presented, not just 10 commandments. “God” also told Moses “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” (Exodus 22:18) without bothering to mention how to identify these witches. He also condones slavery, and the selling of one’s own daughter into slavery (Exodus 21). In this chapter he even sadistically would force a slave, after serving his master for 6 years, to choose between freedom without his wife and children or a LIFETIME of slavery with them.
Surely Christians would be in favor of displaying MORE passages from the Bible for the sake of “context.” I bet seeing the whole speech on courthouse lawns would make more than a few people think twice.
There is a definite problem with religious texts being presented in any kind of way that says “This is a moral statement that the US Gov’t stands behind.”
On the other hand, if a huge slab with the 10Cs is sitting next to Hamurabi’s code and King Tut in a museum, then that really doesn’t say that the US Gov’t is supporting the 10 commandments in any sort of non-academic way. Does that mean that it isn’t a problem?
In terms of the separation of church and state, yes, it solves the problem. However, I fail to see how running a museum protects my rights. The proper purpose of government is the protection of citizens’ rights, and museums should be private enterprises rather than tax-supported money pits.
This is a similar issue to the cross on Soledad Mountain here in San Diego. If the area was owned by a private land trust rather than a government park, there would be no problem. As it is, the cross is dangerously close to a declaration that the US Gov’t supports a particular doctrine.
So what part does American Atheists play in this court case?
Is Ellen Johnson just riding on the coat tails of the work of others and showing up for photo ops whenever someone else makes the press? And American Atheists pay the bills too.
I find it amusing that like all Christian apologists the Bible is “mis-translated” or parts have gotten lost in translation according to Tim. Never mind that a all powerful God would surely have seen to it that the rule book was precisely kept in tact and clearly translated. We have to wait for scrolls found at this late date to get things straight? Wow, I’m impressed!
I’m one Atheist that doesn’t respect the Christian world view in the least, a clearly barbarous and contradictory book that a child should be able to pick up on, is viewed as a guide to civilized living, only those who wish to believe could believe this nonsense. This book was written by people that were the product of their time and given license by their manufacturing of a fictitious God. I will however respect anyone’s right to believe it even though I think it is a child like aversion to death.
I was raised Catholic and before High School the folly of the swill they were teaching had already begun to dawn on me.
The ten C’s don’t belong in or on State owned land.
interisting post by spotlight – i would like to know why johnson has not fired silverman for telling lies that jew is a race, that he can celabrate passover and be an atheist, that such a thing as jewish atheist he can exist. why does she let him divide atheists into jew and gentile (shegetz or goy) and misrepreesent atheists? if jewish is atheistic then balding is a hair color
jones357: R U Spotlight pretending to B 1 of his supporters? Unless I miss my guess, I rather doubt that everyone in that office goes around w/a yellow armband, or that an ‘A’ tattoo is necessary to distinguish Atheists from others?
I’m an Atheist, but I’m still going 2 have 2 celebrate Xmas (I don’t want to break my family’s heart by not showing up 4 a family function: didja ever think of that?).
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