Comment from: Tim [Member] ? Edit
I would like to analyze the issues you raised in your quotes if I may:

“2) All religions have flaws. They all can be argued to the point where logic forces the proponent to claim “well, you just have to have faith”. Since Atheism never requires faith and cannot be disproven logically (despite countless tries), it has no flaws. Atheism is perfect.”

Ah, but Atheism does require faith, at least for those adherents who believe there is no God. They have faith in their own ability to discern the existence (or lack thereof) of other realms, such as unseen ones. Their faith is in themselves and they fervently believe something which cannot be proved or disproved in the scientific sense by relying on their human senses. There is an inherent assumption in this line of reasoning that if something exists, mankind has the capability to discern it, analyze it, and explain it. This is a leap of faith even Christians aren’t willing to make.

Therefor, Atheism shares much in common with Theism. Both require faith. Both require a belief, albeit on different ends of the spectrum.

“3) If there was ANY proof ANYwhere AT ALL that any god ever existed, I wouldn’t be an Atheist.”

I would simply say that there are things we accept as real that we cannot directly prove the existence of. For example, we accept that our planet is traveling through space and time and is part of a known universe. But can we prove the universe exists as we think we view and understand it? No. We can postulate various theories about the makeup and operation of our unverse, but it is an incomplete picture. Much is unseen that we simply accept on faith. We believe that we know certain things about the universe, but in reality we may never know or be incapable of understanding everything involved. Such is the nature of being human.

Atheists have “faith” in humanity (usually) but Atheism does not rely on “blind faith” at all.

Quick – why did an all-loving God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden, KNOWING (since he is omnicient) that Adam and eve would eat the fruit and fall from grace? Because of his love? That makes no sense, but you have to have faith. Why didn’t God just start with Noah, since everyone was going to die anyway? Why didn’t he just forget the whole original sin, since it was actually God’s fault in the first place? Have faith?

Atheism doesn’t have anything like that, AT ALL. We never say “gee, that’s a major whole in my theology, but you shouldn’t think about it, just have faith that I’m right”

That’s what makes Atheism perfect. It has no holes, and you never have to bury your head in the sand.

The reason it is faith on their part is that unless they are willing to assert categorically that humans have the ability to discover, discern, analyze, and prove the existence of all things, then they must be taking certain things on faith. They must believe for there is no proof. They are placing faith in their own humanity.

When Atheists say there is or can be no God, they are expressing a belief and as such they share a lot in common with people who believe that there is a God. In the case of the Atheist in this example, he or she is taking it on faith that since the existence of God hasn’t been proven, God doesn’t exist. In the case of the Theist, he or she knows that the existence of God can’t be proven, but accepts the existence of God on faith.

Atheism is not a belief. It is the lack of belief — a philosophy which understands that physics and mathematics rule the universe, as opposed to mythology or superstition. We base our theories on evidence — not necessarily proof — and learn as the evidence grows.

And again, despite your glossy debate in the first post, there is neither proof NOR EVIDENCE that any of the gods to which any human has prayed has ever existed AT ALL. That’s the difference between the two meanings of “faith” you use we have faith in theories based on evidence. You have BLIND faith in mythology despite evidence.

How much convincing do you need for anything to be ABSOLUTELY TRUE in the example you cited? Indeed, since you do not know everything, are you willing to concede the possibility that we may be right? Do you have even the tiniest amount of doubt that your god exists? If you don’t say Yes, then you’re a hypocrite.

I understand that there are a number of different varieties of Atheism, just like there are differences between people who consider themselves Christians. I have been discussing Atheism from the standpoint of those adherents who believe fervently that there is no God, not from the viewpoint of those who simply have an absence of belief in a Deity.

Proof or evidence of God isn’t the issue, it’s whether one can say with any certainty at all that God doesn’t exist. As you say, some Atheists put their faith in human science. That is precisely my point. It is the belief in something, not a certainty.

Can you say with certainty that Zeus doesn’t exist? I can. can you say with certainty that Santa Claus doesn’t exist? I can. Can you say with certainty that there is no invisible undetectable unicorn in my bedroom? I can.

Can you find a difference between evidence supporting Zeus, Santa Claus, the Unicorn, and your god? I can’t.

You assert that you can definitively say Zeus does not exist. How? If the ancient Greeks created him to describe their belief in a Deity, it still does not prove the underlying premise that a Deity, or Supreme Being does not exist. Zeus, as an image the ancient Greeks could understand to describe their belief system did exist.

You say that you can definitively say Santa Claus does not exist. Who is Santa Claus really. It’s obvious he is a creation of man, being a man himself. Therefor, he isn’t comparable to an unseen Deity. Now as a symbol, I say he is real and so do a lot of children as well!

You say that you can definitively say with certainty that there is no invisible undetectable unicorn in my bedroom? Again, How? If the Unicorn was invisible and undetectable you would not be able to say whether or not he exists. Now, again, a Unicorn is not comparable to a Deity in my mind, but hey I tried to work with the example you gave.

Finally, I think I have covered your last question. Of course there are differences between your examples and God, but that isn’t the real issue is it?

I’d like to take up one item from your earlier post I didn’t have time for earlier.

You said “Indeed, since you do not know everything, are you willing to concede the possibility that we may be right? Do you have even the tiniest amount of doubt that your god exists? If you don’t say Yes, then you’re a hypocrite.”

First, since I am unable to prove in the scientific sense that God exists I certainly am willing to say there is a possibility that God does not exist. However, since I am not relying on science or my own five senses in this regard, I am perfectly consistent in saying that I have no doubt that God does exist, though obviously not in a conventional form we are familiar with. Remember, I’m taking a leap of faith just the same as those who sincerely believe and have faith that there is no God.

So yes, I can believe and have faith in something unseen, though I cannot prove it in the conventional sense. As I said in an earlier post, there are things all of us accept as real that we cannot directly prove the existence of. In my mind, faith isn’t a bad thing in and of itself.

One last thought, I want people to know that I respect their beliefs though they may differ from my own. It’s just that I have a need to discuss the meaning of these issues with other people.

Anyone who pretends to know God, what he wants or why we are here is a liar and/or delusional. Having said that, at least I know that I am here, and alive. I really can’t prove that anyone else is real. This might be some elaborate simulation that some kid in another reality created just to see if I would accept any of these God(s) and religions, and he might really send me to a simulated hell when this physical life comes to an end.. maybe (cryogenics baby, save me til we fix this nasty aging shit!!).

Assuming that all you guys have a consciousness and self-awareness similiar to mine, that means “something special” exists in that we are able to think and reason about ourselves in a way that is not observable to anyone but ourselves.

One cannot “step outside” this universe to figure out what gave rise to it. Science cannot explain that which it cannot observe and it doesn’t pretend to. Unfortunately, humans have a nasty tendancy to make up things when they don’t have answers. I prefer to accept the unknowable and not worry about it.

If everyone believed in reason, relaxed, and thought about your fellow humans the world would be a better place. As it is, we’ve been killing each other over fairy tales since we started walking upright.