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I was just trying to explain what’s behind the viewpoint. I pointed out the differences as many believers see them so you could have a frame of reference when you encounter this again.
Just as there seems to be a number of interpretations within Atheism beyond the dictionary definition, so it is for religion.
It’s understandable that the dictionary can’t capture every variation or interpretation, but it does at least capture the most commonly held meanings of words.
I wonder; do Christian attempts at redefining Christianity have anything to do with George Bush?s policies of funding Christian churches and programs with taxpayer dollars? If Christianity can be redefined as not being a religion, then even more tax dollars can be handed over to Christian causes.
And then it?s not a big leap to go to our government being totally ruled by the Christian right-wing, fanatical fundamentalist. Actually, we may already be there or very close to it with right-wing, conservative, fanatical Republicans running the Executive and Legislative branches of our government.
And now it also appears that the judicial branch is going to be among that same bunch of fanatics after Bush gets finished with stuffing the Supreme Court with like-minded new supremes.
Lord have mercy on us poor rational, sane atheists.
I am a retired professor of theoretical physics. As a scientist, I simply can not understand how anyone who has the ability to think can have a theistic viewpoint of the nature of reality. In addition, I wish people would use the word God in the proper manner, and not difine it as they see fit. God is a PURELY theistic concept.
Do I believe the bible anymore ? No. Do I respect some of the tenets ? Yes. I only wish so called “christians would respect them also.
I was inculcated with this belief system and even went to a church of england school, confirmed, everything. Then one day I started to question the whole ethos of it, church of where ? alright to kill in a war ? The more I questioned, the less believable it all became.
Then, if your lucky, you get to go online and find sites such as this and others with quotes that open your eyes to other possibilities. One of the most telling was by a Dr. Conway commenting on Jesus crying from the cross “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me!” (Matthew 27:46), “That cry could never be wrung from the lips of a man who saw in his own death a prearranged plan for the world’s salvation, and his own return to divine glory temporarily renounced for transient misery on earth. The fictitious theology of a thousand years shrivels beneath the awful anguish of that cry”.
That just about says it all. If Jesus knew his fate no cry would come from his mouth. However if he was a well meaning deluded person then it changes the complextion of that religion completely.
I do feel sorry for those unable to break free from this tyranny because the real freedom comes not from some benign supernatural deity or superman or any other quick fix but from a belief in yourself as a human being with no help but what you find yourself or someone good enough to give a helping hand. We all need help from time to time but hoping for help from above is a waste of effort. Epicurus put it really well, “If the gods listened to the prayers of men, all humankind would quickly perish since they constantly pray for many evils to befall one another”.
Trust in yourself and be the best you can to your family, friends and even strangers.
Jaraw
If you have an open mind, there is an explanation for Jesus’s statement that is perfectly consistent with everything in the bible.
The principle that Jesus is the propitiation for all of mankind’s sins, past and present, required that all sins ever committed or those yet to be committed by man be imputed to Jesus while he was on the cross. This is why Jesus agreed to become man and live among us. He knew what was to come. Despite his humanity, He was still God and as such in constant “communion” with the other two mwmbers of the trinity.
When he was on the cross, God the Father turned his back on Jesus while Jesus was bearing our sins. This is why Jesus cried out. Not from the physical pain, but rather from the separation from the other members of the trinity, something which He had never experienced before (and never would again.)
It is a shame that humans have become so petty that their belief have now become trying to disprove a belief. I think any firm believer of God easily has the grounds to refute anything an atheist ever says, simply because God?s name survived. Atheists do believe something, and thusly they further the bibles prophecy. In acknowledging you believe in no God you advocate for the Antigod. Inasmuch if your antipathy is directed specifically at Christ you further the belief that there is a trinity. God without a son would have never been know to man in the fashion he is known today. Without Christ the Christian Lord, you atheist would no doubt simply be scientist, and would cease your chase of the Holy Ghost.
Atheists are advocates of an antigod? THAT is a good one! Thank you for starting my day off with a laugh. It’s just as ignorant as telling me that I approve of terrorist actions because I don’t approve the war. And we’re not just picking on christ or x-tians or christinsanity (emphasis on the INSANITY). I, for one, treat all religions the same way (i.e. it’s all a bunch of bullshit).
You stated, ?Without Christ the Christian Lord, you atheist would no doubt simply be scientist, and would cease your chase of the Holy Ghost.?
I?m not sure, but I think that was a compliment. As atheist scientists, I assume you are implying that we are logical and reasonable, and base our existence on evidential natural processes; moreover, that we would not be chasing after an illogical, irrational holy spook that has absolutely no evidence for its support. Thank you, proactiveT!
BillL previously gave a description of the Holy Trinity that I love, ??the three headed dragon idea (the pop, the kid and the spook)?.?
How do you know what god did Tim? Who told you and when? Or did you find out yourself. How?
Every religion thats ever been thought IT was THE one true way to a god or gods. I bet the Mayans killing their enemies and their children by cutting out their hearts believed it was the only way to preserve their way of life. It wasn’t, was it?
All the “old” religions have gone because they never lived up to their congregations expectations and so they turned their backs on them only to be seduced by another outrageous set of lies,i.e. everlasting life.
Surely we should have outgrown such superstitious claptrap by now. I fell about laughing when I saw on a news broadcast the pope being installed recently and could only wonder in amazment that anyone could take it seriously. All that waving the sensor, I think it is, something that was introduced because the congregation stank years ago. Do they still? I dont think so. In your bible it says that god forbade steps up to the altar and screens to hide what goes on. What does every church have? Steps and here in the UK, screens, not blocking the view completely but emphasizing the gap between clergy and everyone else. If they really wanted your participation in the service they would follow biblical rules.
But then they rarely do.
I looked at all the hypocritical persons attending church around me and decided I wanted nothing to do with them anymore,ever. Why is it all and I do mean ALL, religious people of every denomination bastardise the texts they supposedly believe in. They all propose that tolerance should be practiced but it never is. Its one thing for a believer (superstitious person) to proselytize to someone once. But when that goes on ad nauseam then it becomes an assault on that persons individual right to disagree.
The sooner people around the world can dump this dependance on supernatural beings the better.
As you can see Tim you have no chance of converting me back to that superstitious state because I finally have an open mind and believe that goodness in people does not depend on them being superstitious and believing hokum. My wife was always tolerant of my christianty but she never believed in it. But I loved her for her goodness to others, she would never do another a bad turn, is a quiet self deprecating individual. But according to every “church”, religion or creed she will be thrown into hell. Well hell, thats just crap as is the whole concept of religion. Give it up and have a real and fulfilling life without the claptrap others want you to carry on your shoulders. I feel so much freer now, to the point where, when my son was married in a buddhist ceremony (he does not believe that either) I was able to bow to a Buddha figurine without thinking “gods gonna strike me dead”. My new daughter in law and her parents were happy and I didnt mind just keeping the ceremony a convivial experience for all. How would you feel, Tim, in that position, could you keep the peace or would you stand on your superstitions? I know, you would explain your beliefs and get absolutely nowhere, just antagonize everyone and provoke hostility and discord at what is supposed to be a happy event.
Still thats got to be better than offending god.
Your Benjamin Franklin has many great quotes about religion such as “The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason” and “Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another.”
When you look at the world you can see how true his words are. Religion robs you of thought, freedom and, most of all, your money. There are no poor churches and the disgrace of the vatican “city” is a true abomination. That fat shits can live in bloated luxury while most of their “flock” starve is so against what their bible tells them is the right way to serve their god if there was one it would have blown them straight to the hell they preach will happen to anyone who disagrees with them.
Sorry, dont mean to go on, but the more you look with an “open” mind at ALL this claptrap the more incensed I become at the hours wasted trying to appease an angry god. God is love they say but what god would sentence a “good” person to purgatory for ever just because they could not accept bull from know nothing thieves who whore and fornicate from dawn til dawn the next day.
I’m off again but as its 1am here I think i will get to my bed before dawn breaks. Have a good life and forget about religion, pity the bastards who blew up those commuters today didn’t, but they were fooled into believing vigins are waiting for them in heaven, sex mad to the end.
I for one am not chasing “the spook”. As atheists we are constantly barraged with your kind of dogma, and have no choice but to engage in discussion concerning religion to defend our own beliefs. If people, such as yourself, could open their minds and remove the blinders they would have no choice but to accept the reality that god can not exist. I also find it hilarious that theists keep lying about the judeo/christian belief being the oldest, longest lasting religion. Fact: China has written history going back a couple thousand years before judeo/christian beliefs ever came about. It may not be all about religion but some of their beliefs, back then, still endure today. Such as, the martial arts, which promote good health and exercise. Some even consider it their religion, because it is very disciplined and is not something you just take on a fancy. So stop lying about your beliefs being the oldest, most enduring. It’s just not true!
I’ll give you the best example I have to date. Mind you I was an atheist long before this example, and it only helped to prove the fact that your supposed “loving” god does not exist.
My mother, a wonderful, loving, caring, giving person, died of cancer just over a year ago. She was only 56, and left behind her husband, three children, and six grand children. She didn’t even get the chance to see the last grandchild born before she died. She was a believer who attended church, and read the bible, and was so giving of herself that we used to tease her that she didn’t know the word “no”.
This came about just one year after she watched her own mother, my grandmother, who was just as wonderful a person, suffer and die of cancer and heart problems. Add to that the fact that her own twin sister turned her back on her in her most trying times over petty money issues related to my grandmother’s estate. She fought the cancer and suffered for almost two years before it finally overtook her body.
My immediate family sat in vigile for 6 days as we watched her slowly die right before our eyes. Her sister only showing up the day before she passed for roughly 5 minutes to avoid her own guilt. She wasn’t even coherent for the last three days because she begged us before hand to not let her be in pain like her mother was in her final days. So we had the hospice nurse feed her morphine every hour to keep her from the pain she feared so much. I sat next to my mother holding her hand for six days straight without sleep. Watching, as the woman I loved more than anything in the world slowly withered away and died. It was the most painful thing I have ever been through, and to this day It’s extremely hard to think about it without breaking down and feeling depressed about the loss of such a loving person.
If yours or any god existed, my mother would be alive today and she would be enjoying her grand children, and looking forward to trips with my dad.
She was a true christian woman, and there was no god there to save her from something so hideous and painful. The months on end of Chemo and radiation, not being able to breathe because it had spread to her lungs. If there was a god, my mother would not have suffered the way she did. She, of all people, did not deserve it.
So, there you go, my proof that a god does not exist. Twist it up however you want…god was testing…we can never know gods purpose…WHATEVER!
The fact of the matter is my mother died of cancer brought on by years of smoking. She was so addicted, thanks a lot big tobacco (heavy sarcasm), she smoked until the month before she died. Even then, she only quit because she could no longer breathe on her own without oxygen. Cancer is more prevelant today than ever before, because humans are polluting the earth, and themselves, and destroying our own civilization because we refuse to stand up to the greedy corporations who are causing it all. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no god involved with any of it. It’s just us humans.
If you wish to engage in a little discussion, I’d like to once again challenge statements like yours where you said, “… they would have no choice but to accept the reality that god can not exist.”
Please explain how God cannot exist. Tou know this for a fact, do you? Or is it simply your opinion or belief that God cannot exist.
Sure Tim. I was “confirmed” into the Church of England,C of E, but left for a number of reasons. I then looked into other christian theories including, but not only, Roman, Mormon and Jehovahs Witnesses. My wife didn’t try to dissuade me but neither did she encourage my quest.
The reason, and I use that word intentionally, I was finally convinced that I had wasted a chunk of my life on chasing shadows was after reading online, so much evidence from people who have spent a lot of their lives investigating tangible facts and extrapolating theories from them which can be changed should evidence come to light to alter perceptions of said theories. Conversely, things come to light that prove the theory is more right than wrong.
The only fact offered by, and I do stress, ANY religion, is that you have faith that what you are told is fact and must not be questioned. Or get out!
But whilst I fought my demons, my better half was happy just to enjoy life, raising our boys, working part time for those extras she likes to buy us and coping with cancer striking her parents at different times. Now, after her Mother was killed by this god awful disease, she thought, only because her Mother was, sort of semi religious, to have the services of a C of E vicar. Did not make the same mistake ten years later when her Father died. I took the service of remembrance for him at the crematorium and listened to his old army pals talk about him. So much better than that pious prat telling us that “Gladys was an evil woman but now she is in heaven”. He did not know her, never met her, so how did he know she was evil? She was my Mother in Law and I was grateful for her help and advice when starting our own family. Evil? Never. Was he an arsehole. Oh yeah!
Reinforced my decision that it was all smoke and mirrors and not worth a seconds thought. Got to admit though, the first couple of years I had this feeling that I was going to be in trouble for renouncing “god”. It is like throwing off a bad habit, like smoking, I thought I would start again but I never have, same with god, its gone and I really do feel better for it. Now I am as happy as my Wife with no worries about whats going to happen after I die. Just enjoy what you have and avoid hurting, harming or generally disrupting others lives as best you can. As my Wife tells me, little help can go a very long way.
My sincere condolences on your loss. Any death of a loved one is very hard and your feelings of sadness and loss are understandable.
It is my hope that someday your bitterness will turn to joy and hope. This is possible through faith, although you don’t see it now.
I want you to know that suffering and death are just part of our experience as humans. God does not cause the pain, but gives us what we need to endure it.
I know in my heart that it is possible to see our departed loved ones again. I hope that someday you can have the peace which “passes all understanding.” This inner peace comes from God as a blessing to believers. It is here now for anyone who desires it.
I’m not bitter, I am quite joyful, and have hope for the future just fine. It’s found in my own children, not in any faith. My mother even realized this in the end, because she wanted to dedicate her body to science, to help science try and find a cure by studying her cancer ridden body. She was ultimately cremated by her own choice. It was her way of denouncing religion in her final days. After all, according to your religion you are buried so that when the rapture comes, god can resurrect his followers and bring them into heaven. She knew in her heart it was just fluff and puff and the only thing she could accomplish after death was to try and contribute to science for the rest of us. You know the old saying, “the children are our future.”
BTW- Your statement “I know in my heart that it is possible to see our departed loved ones again.” Why don’t you be honest with yourself and say what your probably really thinking “I hope in my heart that it is possible to see our departed ones again.” Where’s your proof??? It sounds to me like you are caught longing for the past. Not wanting to move on and hoping to someday see them again. I have moved on since my mothers death, and I see her all the time. My daughter has a strong resemblance. You can not focus on the past and hope to get to the future.
I still do not understand why it is an Atheist’s responsibility to prove a universal negative. Religion is the one making the claim, so the burden of proof of any god falls on their shoulders. If I said that there was a tree with purple bark and blue leaves in front of my house, I would have to prove that it was there since no one would believe me. Without seeing my property, can you prove to me that I don’t have a tree lik that in front of my house?
When you get right down to it, religionist are nothing more than psychologically dependent on a god. They have been lied to and have been lying to themselves for so long that they have convinced each other that god is the answer for everything. It’s no different than smokers who have been smoking for a number of years. They’ve been smoking for so long that they are psychologically dependent on cigarettes to fill their empty time.
I agree with BillL; it is the responsibility of theists to prove there is a god, not the atheist?s responsibility to prove there is no god. For an atheist to prove there is no god would be like trying to prove there is no tooth fairy or any other mythical concept or to prove something that doesn?t exist doesn?t exist.
When a theist is asked to prove God exists, the typical responses are endless Bible quotes. The Bible is a book of mythology not unlike Grimm?s Fairy Tales. The Bible proves nothing. Another response is that you first have to have faith; this is totally meaningless.
I have also been told that God is unknowable, that we cannot truly know God. It then logically follows that the concept of god is devoid of content and is meaningless.
I have yet to find a theist that can describe God, or explain the nature of God, or explain how God can be identified without using mystical hyperbole or relying on their old standby of Bible quotes.
We say there is no God. Theists say there is a God. So prove it theists.
I’ve never asked Atheists to prove there isn’t a God. In an earlier post I said, “Proof or evidence of God isn’t the issue, it’s whether one can say with any certainty at all that God doesn’t exist.”
Further, believers are under no obligation to prove the existence of God any more than Atheists are to prove there isn’t. We can agree that we aren’t going to be able to anyway.
So where does that leave us? In the realm of beliefs, my friends. You have yours and I have mine and that’s O.K.
All I want is for people to admit what they know is true: that there is a possibility God exists. I have no problem with people believing what they want, or simply choosing not to believe in anything. But as I have stated previously, if you start with a negative assumption, a discussion never gets anywhere. A logical or rational way to approach an unknown is to first admit the obvious possibilities.
Once that happens, open and honest dialogue can occur. Now if anyone is willing to do this, then we will have a proper starting point for discussing issues related to faith.
You really stepped in your own poop this time. That last statement is so hyprocritical it’s not even funny.
How can you ask that we consider the possibility that god exists, when you yourself refuse to consider the possibility that god does not exist?
Are you reading this forum or just gleaning what you want from it? There are several people in here who started out believing the possibilty that god existed. They were believers to start with. Now through rational and logical thinking they have come to the conclusion that god does no exist.
We are not starting with a negative assumption, we are using real facts based on reality, not belief in fantasy. Take the story of Noah or how humanity started with just Adam and Eve and only two sons. Reality and science both say you cannot create enough diversity in the gene pool to support those stories. It collapses in on itself. Why do you think you can’t marry your sister? Because we know through science that it creates deformities and disease. The DNA is to similar and corrupts itself during reproduction. This has even occured in total strangers who happened to have DNA so similar they were unable to have children. Through DNA analysis it was determined that they were just like a brother and sister, yet from completely different bloodlines. It just isn’t possible to get DNA to overcome this very important function of needing to create diversity.
When you can accept the possibility that your bible is nothing more than a book of stories, totally unsupported by science, and history, then maybe you can finally accept the reality we all know to be true.
Fascinating. I wonder in what other areas of life you are also convinced there are no possibilities.
So if you are certain beyond any doubt that there is absolutely and positively no possibility of something, I assume you have a pretty solid basis for such a belief.
I’m sorry, but from here it appears to be more like a denial of the obvious for personal reasons rather than a tenable position. I do not think anyone can credibly argue against such an obvious possibility. If you do, then you are in effect proposing that you know something that cannot be known (at least at this point in time.) If you make this claim, then you would be the first human with this ability!
I will also answer your question. Of course it is possible God doesn’t exist. To say otherwise would be untenable. I am stating clearly that it is my belief that God does exist and I wish others here would just stand up, be proud of their beliefs and be willing to discuss the aspects of their beliefs in an open an honest fashion.
I couldn’t help but notice in your response to ionfield your use of the word “obvious”. What is it you think is so obvious you are compelled to believe?
Other areas of life that I am also convinced there are no possibilities are belief in the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy. (Although, I?m not yet sure about Santa Clause.) These too have as much credence as your imaginary, mythological god.
I?m the first human with this ability? Golly, I just might be the second coming of Christ.
Tim, are you saying that you also believe in the possibility that the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy do exist? (Let?s keep Santa Clause out of this argument.)
What is obvious and self-evident is the possibility that God exists.
Despite the silly references to the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause which I covered previously in another thread, any serious contemplation of man’s existence postulates the existence of God. People are free to use that as a departure point for debate and often do.
Now, another thing that’s obvious is that given our human abilities, it is not possible to prove scientifically that God either exists or does not exist. Thus we are left with opinion, conjecture, rationalization, prognostication, reason, or just good old-fashioned belief.
What some people won’t admit is that it is simply a belief on their part that God doesn’t exist. They want to wrap it in some kind of scientific reasoning, but it doesn’t work – it’s still a belief or opinion on their part.
To seriously ponder (to use a better word) about man’s existence should not postulate the existence of god. Because that merely starts out thinking that it is true.
Postulate: 1.) to assume to be true, real, etc. especially as a basis for argument 2.) to take for granted.
Once again, you assume it is true from the beginning. This should not be the basis of serious thought about man’s existence. You can not start out with assumptions. You must start with no assumptions, formulate a theorem, and use the facts to reach a conclusion. You will never accept the facts if you are postulating god from the beginning.
Do I accept the possibilty that god exists. NO. (add my name to the list of firsts)
Do I accept that there is a possibility that something connects the universe in a way we do not yet understand. Yes. However, that is rooted in science. Gravity, electricity, magnetism, quantum physics etc. Natural forces not yet completely understood by man, as of yet. However, the more we learn about these things the better we understand them and, will eventually figure out how the universe is connected and interacts.
So, postulate all you want and get nowhere. The rest of us will ponder the universe and through science understand it’s true nature.
?To deny the possible existence of God is to remain deliberately blind by choice.?
You haven?t yet said whether or not you also believe in the possibility that the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy do exist. Also your reasoning for or against that belief. These are equally plausible theories as your belief in a god.
You may think it silly to postulate the existence of these characters, but it is no sillier to us than for you to postulate the existence of an imaginary, mythical god.
So come on Tim, let?s keep an open mind and not be deliberately blind during this dialogue.
In response to your post in the terrorist thread. (I will post this response there as well.)
You have some serious misconceptions about how we approach the bible. I don’t think any of us would deny the ability of the bible to show morality in humans. You don’t have to be a believer, or have a teacher, to understand that. We just don’t see the need to place that morality as being given to us by a god. We don’t have to fear for our lives (or afterlife) in order to be moral. We do so because it makes sense. What goes around comes around. If we do bad things, eventually someone will do bad things to us because of our behavior. If we try to be moral then it is less likely someone will do bad things to us. That doesn’t mean bad things won’t happen anyway, that’s just part of living on this planet. We can’t control everything, but we can learn to understand it using logic and reasoning (science).
The bible IS, after all, a book of stories showing how humans can be moral or amoral of their own free will. So do a lot of fairy tales and other stories throughout history that were written by man. Just like the bible is written by man. (Present tense intended. Does anyone know when the newest version is supposed to come out? I’m anxious to see what changes they made this time.) That’s why we put it in the same category.
It also shows that it was necessary to convince people that there was more at stake for being amoral in order to get them to do the good things. We as humans have evolved past that (some of us anyway). It’s called a better education. To continue believing that everything that happens in our lives is guided by a god is archaic. We have found the answers as to why certain things happen and they don’t involve the hand of god, just natural forces taking their course.
You’re the one who is on the dead-end path because you would rather believe than seek the truth about what is going on all around us. You are stuck in an endless cycle because you refuse to let go of your fears and allow logic and reasoning to show you the truth.
Now, on to your response to me.
You can call it a leap of faith if you want. I call it determination to seek the truth without being hindered by archaic views and a fear of the unknown.
By seeking the truth and not allowing myself to be hindered by those archaic views and fears, I am opening my eyes to a whole new set of possibilities. You are the one who is blinded by faith. Not wanting to let go out of fear that it is possible there is more to it than just a god. After all, isn’t that why they call it blind faith? The only way to remain faithful to god is to be blind.
ionfield,
I was just trying to explain what’s behind the viewpoint. I pointed out the differences as many believers see them so you could have a frame of reference when you encounter this again.
Just as there seems to be a number of interpretations within Atheism beyond the dictionary definition, so it is for religion.
It’s understandable that the dictionary can’t capture every variation or interpretation, but it does at least capture the most commonly held meanings of words.
I wonder; do Christian attempts at redefining Christianity have anything to do with George Bush?s policies of funding Christian churches and programs with taxpayer dollars? If Christianity can be redefined as not being a religion, then even more tax dollars can be handed over to Christian causes.
And then it?s not a big leap to go to our government being totally ruled by the Christian right-wing, fanatical fundamentalist. Actually, we may already be there or very close to it with right-wing, conservative, fanatical Republicans running the Executive and Legislative branches of our government.
And now it also appears that the judicial branch is going to be among that same bunch of fanatics after Bush gets finished with stuffing the Supreme Court with like-minded new supremes.
Lord have mercy on us poor rational, sane atheists.
I am a retired professor of theoretical physics. As a scientist, I simply can not understand how anyone who has the ability to think can have a theistic viewpoint of the nature of reality. In addition, I wish people would use the word God in the proper manner, and not difine it as they see fit. God is a PURELY theistic concept.
Thank You,
Dr.Stuart Schaller, PhD
Do I believe the bible anymore ? No. Do I respect some of the tenets ? Yes. I only wish so called “christians would respect them also.
I was inculcated with this belief system and even went to a church of england school, confirmed, everything. Then one day I started to question the whole ethos of it, church of where ? alright to kill in a war ? The more I questioned, the less believable it all became.
Then, if your lucky, you get to go online and find sites such as this and others with quotes that open your eyes to other possibilities. One of the most telling was by a Dr. Conway commenting on Jesus crying from the cross “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me!” (Matthew 27:46), “That cry could never be wrung from the lips of a man who saw in his own death a prearranged plan for the world’s salvation, and his own return to divine glory temporarily renounced for transient misery on earth. The fictitious theology of a thousand years shrivels beneath the awful anguish of that cry”.
That just about says it all. If Jesus knew his fate no cry would come from his mouth. However if he was a well meaning deluded person then it changes the complextion of that religion completely.
I do feel sorry for those unable to break free from this tyranny because the real freedom comes not from some benign supernatural deity or superman or any other quick fix but from a belief in yourself as a human being with no help but what you find yourself or someone good enough to give a helping hand. We all need help from time to time but hoping for help from above is a waste of effort. Epicurus put it really well, “If the gods listened to the prayers of men, all humankind would quickly perish since they constantly pray for many evils to befall one another”.
Trust in yourself and be the best you can to your family, friends and even strangers.
Jaraw
jaraw,
If you have an open mind, there is an explanation for Jesus’s statement that is perfectly consistent with everything in the bible.
The principle that Jesus is the propitiation for all of mankind’s sins, past and present, required that all sins ever committed or those yet to be committed by man be imputed to Jesus while he was on the cross. This is why Jesus agreed to become man and live among us. He knew what was to come. Despite his humanity, He was still God and as such in constant “communion” with the other two mwmbers of the trinity.
When he was on the cross, God the Father turned his back on Jesus while Jesus was bearing our sins. This is why Jesus cried out. Not from the physical pain, but rather from the separation from the other members of the trinity, something which He had never experienced before (and never would again.)
It is a shame that humans have become so petty that their belief have now become trying to disprove a belief. I think any firm believer of God easily has the grounds to refute anything an atheist ever says, simply because God?s name survived. Atheists do believe something, and thusly they further the bibles prophecy. In acknowledging you believe in no God you advocate for the Antigod. Inasmuch if your antipathy is directed specifically at Christ you further the belief that there is a trinity. God without a son would have never been know to man in the fashion he is known today. Without Christ the Christian Lord, you atheist would no doubt simply be scientist, and would cease your chase of the Holy Ghost.
Atheists are advocates of an antigod? THAT is a good one! Thank you for starting my day off with a laugh. It’s just as ignorant as telling me that I approve of terrorist actions because I don’t approve the war. And we’re not just picking on christ or x-tians or christinsanity (emphasis on the INSANITY). I, for one, treat all religions the same way (i.e. it’s all a bunch of bullshit).
proactiveT,
You stated, ?Without Christ the Christian Lord, you atheist would no doubt simply be scientist, and would cease your chase of the Holy Ghost.?
I?m not sure, but I think that was a compliment. As atheist scientists, I assume you are implying that we are logical and reasonable, and base our existence on evidential natural processes; moreover, that we would not be chasing after an illogical, irrational holy spook that has absolutely no evidence for its support. Thank you, proactiveT!
BillL previously gave a description of the Holy Trinity that I love, ??the three headed dragon idea (the pop, the kid and the spook)?.?
How do you know what god did Tim? Who told you and when? Or did you find out yourself. How?
Every religion thats ever been thought IT was THE one true way to a god or gods. I bet the Mayans killing their enemies and their children by cutting out their hearts believed it was the only way to preserve their way of life. It wasn’t, was it?
All the “old” religions have gone because they never lived up to their congregations expectations and so they turned their backs on them only to be seduced by another outrageous set of lies,i.e. everlasting life.
Surely we should have outgrown such superstitious claptrap by now. I fell about laughing when I saw on a news broadcast the pope being installed recently and could only wonder in amazment that anyone could take it seriously. All that waving the sensor, I think it is, something that was introduced because the congregation stank years ago. Do they still? I dont think so. In your bible it says that god forbade steps up to the altar and screens to hide what goes on. What does every church have? Steps and here in the UK, screens, not blocking the view completely but emphasizing the gap between clergy and everyone else. If they really wanted your participation in the service they would follow biblical rules.
But then they rarely do.
I looked at all the hypocritical persons attending church around me and decided I wanted nothing to do with them anymore,ever. Why is it all and I do mean ALL, religious people of every denomination bastardise the texts they supposedly believe in. They all propose that tolerance should be practiced but it never is. Its one thing for a believer (superstitious person) to proselytize to someone once. But when that goes on ad nauseam then it becomes an assault on that persons individual right to disagree.
The sooner people around the world can dump this dependance on supernatural beings the better.
As you can see Tim you have no chance of converting me back to that superstitious state because I finally have an open mind and believe that goodness in people does not depend on them being superstitious and believing hokum. My wife was always tolerant of my christianty but she never believed in it. But I loved her for her goodness to others, she would never do another a bad turn, is a quiet self deprecating individual. But according to every “church”, religion or creed she will be thrown into hell. Well hell, thats just crap as is the whole concept of religion. Give it up and have a real and fulfilling life without the claptrap others want you to carry on your shoulders. I feel so much freer now, to the point where, when my son was married in a buddhist ceremony (he does not believe that either) I was able to bow to a Buddha figurine without thinking “gods gonna strike me dead”. My new daughter in law and her parents were happy and I didnt mind just keeping the ceremony a convivial experience for all. How would you feel, Tim, in that position, could you keep the peace or would you stand on your superstitions? I know, you would explain your beliefs and get absolutely nowhere, just antagonize everyone and provoke hostility and discord at what is supposed to be a happy event.
Still thats got to be better than offending god.
Your Benjamin Franklin has many great quotes about religion such as “The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason” and “Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another.”
When you look at the world you can see how true his words are. Religion robs you of thought, freedom and, most of all, your money. There are no poor churches and the disgrace of the vatican “city” is a true abomination. That fat shits can live in bloated luxury while most of their “flock” starve is so against what their bible tells them is the right way to serve their god if there was one it would have blown them straight to the hell they preach will happen to anyone who disagrees with them.
Sorry, dont mean to go on, but the more you look with an “open” mind at ALL this claptrap the more incensed I become at the hours wasted trying to appease an angry god. God is love they say but what god would sentence a “good” person to purgatory for ever just because they could not accept bull from know nothing thieves who whore and fornicate from dawn til dawn the next day.
I’m off again but as its 1am here I think i will get to my bed before dawn breaks. Have a good life and forget about religion, pity the bastards who blew up those commuters today didn’t, but they were fooled into believing vigins are waiting for them in heaven, sex mad to the end.
Wow, unbelievable.
proactive T,
I for one am not chasing “the spook”. As atheists we are constantly barraged with your kind of dogma, and have no choice but to engage in discussion concerning religion to defend our own beliefs. If people, such as yourself, could open their minds and remove the blinders they would have no choice but to accept the reality that god can not exist. I also find it hilarious that theists keep lying about the judeo/christian belief being the oldest, longest lasting religion. Fact: China has written history going back a couple thousand years before judeo/christian beliefs ever came about. It may not be all about religion but some of their beliefs, back then, still endure today. Such as, the martial arts, which promote good health and exercise. Some even consider it their religion, because it is very disciplined and is not something you just take on a fancy. So stop lying about your beliefs being the oldest, most enduring. It’s just not true!
Tim,
I’ll give you the best example I have to date. Mind you I was an atheist long before this example, and it only helped to prove the fact that your supposed “loving” god does not exist.
My mother, a wonderful, loving, caring, giving person, died of cancer just over a year ago. She was only 56, and left behind her husband, three children, and six grand children. She didn’t even get the chance to see the last grandchild born before she died. She was a believer who attended church, and read the bible, and was so giving of herself that we used to tease her that she didn’t know the word “no”.
This came about just one year after she watched her own mother, my grandmother, who was just as wonderful a person, suffer and die of cancer and heart problems. Add to that the fact that her own twin sister turned her back on her in her most trying times over petty money issues related to my grandmother’s estate. She fought the cancer and suffered for almost two years before it finally overtook her body.
My immediate family sat in vigile for 6 days as we watched her slowly die right before our eyes. Her sister only showing up the day before she passed for roughly 5 minutes to avoid her own guilt. She wasn’t even coherent for the last three days because she begged us before hand to not let her be in pain like her mother was in her final days. So we had the hospice nurse feed her morphine every hour to keep her from the pain she feared so much. I sat next to my mother holding her hand for six days straight without sleep. Watching, as the woman I loved more than anything in the world slowly withered away and died. It was the most painful thing I have ever been through, and to this day It’s extremely hard to think about it without breaking down and feeling depressed about the loss of such a loving person.
If yours or any god existed, my mother would be alive today and she would be enjoying her grand children, and looking forward to trips with my dad.
She was a true christian woman, and there was no god there to save her from something so hideous and painful. The months on end of Chemo and radiation, not being able to breathe because it had spread to her lungs. If there was a god, my mother would not have suffered the way she did. She, of all people, did not deserve it.
So, there you go, my proof that a god does not exist. Twist it up however you want…god was testing…we can never know gods purpose…WHATEVER!
The fact of the matter is my mother died of cancer brought on by years of smoking. She was so addicted, thanks a lot big tobacco (heavy sarcasm), she smoked until the month before she died. Even then, she only quit because she could no longer breathe on her own without oxygen. Cancer is more prevelant today than ever before, because humans are polluting the earth, and themselves, and destroying our own civilization because we refuse to stand up to the greedy corporations who are causing it all. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no god involved with any of it. It’s just us humans.
manumit,
If you wish to engage in a little discussion, I’d like to once again challenge statements like yours where you said, “… they would have no choice but to accept the reality that god can not exist.”
Please explain how God cannot exist. Tou know this for a fact, do you? Or is it simply your opinion or belief that God cannot exist.
Jaraw,
I’m curious about your statement above where you said, “My wife was always tolerant of my christianty but she never believed in it.”
Could you expand on this a little?
Sure Tim. I was “confirmed” into the Church of England,C of E, but left for a number of reasons. I then looked into other christian theories including, but not only, Roman, Mormon and Jehovahs Witnesses. My wife didn’t try to dissuade me but neither did she encourage my quest.
The reason, and I use that word intentionally, I was finally convinced that I had wasted a chunk of my life on chasing shadows was after reading online, so much evidence from people who have spent a lot of their lives investigating tangible facts and extrapolating theories from them which can be changed should evidence come to light to alter perceptions of said theories. Conversely, things come to light that prove the theory is more right than wrong.
The only fact offered by, and I do stress, ANY religion, is that you have faith that what you are told is fact and must not be questioned. Or get out!
But whilst I fought my demons, my better half was happy just to enjoy life, raising our boys, working part time for those extras she likes to buy us and coping with cancer striking her parents at different times. Now, after her Mother was killed by this god awful disease, she thought, only because her Mother was, sort of semi religious, to have the services of a C of E vicar. Did not make the same mistake ten years later when her Father died. I took the service of remembrance for him at the crematorium and listened to his old army pals talk about him. So much better than that pious prat telling us that “Gladys was an evil woman but now she is in heaven”. He did not know her, never met her, so how did he know she was evil? She was my Mother in Law and I was grateful for her help and advice when starting our own family. Evil? Never. Was he an arsehole. Oh yeah!
Reinforced my decision that it was all smoke and mirrors and not worth a seconds thought. Got to admit though, the first couple of years I had this feeling that I was going to be in trouble for renouncing “god”. It is like throwing off a bad habit, like smoking, I thought I would start again but I never have, same with god, its gone and I really do feel better for it. Now I am as happy as my Wife with no worries about whats going to happen after I die. Just enjoy what you have and avoid hurting, harming or generally disrupting others lives as best you can. As my Wife tells me, little help can go a very long way.
manumit,
My sincere condolences on your loss. Any death of a loved one is very hard and your feelings of sadness and loss are understandable.
It is my hope that someday your bitterness will turn to joy and hope. This is possible through faith, although you don’t see it now.
I want you to know that suffering and death are just part of our experience as humans. God does not cause the pain, but gives us what we need to endure it.
I know in my heart that it is possible to see our departed loved ones again. I hope that someday you can have the peace which “passes all understanding.” This inner peace comes from God as a blessing to believers. It is here now for anyone who desires it.
Sorry, I missed the “a”.
A little help
Tim,
I’m not bitter, I am quite joyful, and have hope for the future just fine. It’s found in my own children, not in any faith. My mother even realized this in the end, because she wanted to dedicate her body to science, to help science try and find a cure by studying her cancer ridden body. She was ultimately cremated by her own choice. It was her way of denouncing religion in her final days. After all, according to your religion you are buried so that when the rapture comes, god can resurrect his followers and bring them into heaven. She knew in her heart it was just fluff and puff and the only thing she could accomplish after death was to try and contribute to science for the rest of us. You know the old saying, “the children are our future.”
BTW- Your statement “I know in my heart that it is possible to see our departed loved ones again.” Why don’t you be honest with yourself and say what your probably really thinking “I hope in my heart that it is possible to see our departed ones again.” Where’s your proof??? It sounds to me like you are caught longing for the past. Not wanting to move on and hoping to someday see them again. I have moved on since my mothers death, and I see her all the time. My daughter has a strong resemblance. You can not focus on the past and hope to get to the future.
Darn the Html! I only wanted to bold “hope”.
I still do not understand why it is an Atheist’s responsibility to prove a universal negative. Religion is the one making the claim, so the burden of proof of any god falls on their shoulders. If I said that there was a tree with purple bark and blue leaves in front of my house, I would have to prove that it was there since no one would believe me. Without seeing my property, can you prove to me that I don’t have a tree lik that in front of my house?
When you get right down to it, religionist are nothing more than psychologically dependent on a god. They have been lied to and have been lying to themselves for so long that they have convinced each other that god is the answer for everything. It’s no different than smokers who have been smoking for a number of years. They’ve been smoking for so long that they are psychologically dependent on cigarettes to fill their empty time.
I agree with BillL; it is the responsibility of theists to prove there is a god, not the atheist?s responsibility to prove there is no god. For an atheist to prove there is no god would be like trying to prove there is no tooth fairy or any other mythical concept or to prove something that doesn?t exist doesn?t exist.
When a theist is asked to prove God exists, the typical responses are endless Bible quotes. The Bible is a book of mythology not unlike Grimm?s Fairy Tales. The Bible proves nothing. Another response is that you first have to have faith; this is totally meaningless.
I have also been told that God is unknowable, that we cannot truly know God. It then logically follows that the concept of god is devoid of content and is meaningless.
I have yet to find a theist that can describe God, or explain the nature of God, or explain how God can be identified without using mystical hyperbole or relying on their old standby of Bible quotes.
We say there is no God. Theists say there is a God. So prove it theists.
Belief in something is proof of nothing.
I’ve never asked Atheists to prove there isn’t a God. In an earlier post I said, “Proof or evidence of God isn’t the issue, it’s whether one can say with any certainty at all that God doesn’t exist.”
Further, believers are under no obligation to prove the existence of God any more than Atheists are to prove there isn’t. We can agree that we aren’t going to be able to anyway.
So where does that leave us? In the realm of beliefs, my friends. You have yours and I have mine and that’s O.K.
Here’s my “one-liner.”
A belief that something doesn’t exist cannot alter the possibility it actually does exist.
Tim,
You are too funny!
Some may wonder what I am really after here.
All I want is for people to admit what they know is true: that there is a possibility God exists. I have no problem with people believing what they want, or simply choosing not to believe in anything. But as I have stated previously, if you start with a negative assumption, a discussion never gets anywhere. A logical or rational way to approach an unknown is to first admit the obvious possibilities.
Once that happens, open and honest dialogue can occur. Now if anyone is willing to do this, then we will have a proper starting point for discussing issues related to faith.
Tim,
Sorry; as far as I’m concerned, there is absolutely no possibility that God exists. There is positively no doubt in my mind.
Do you admit that there is a possibility that God does not exist?
Tim,
You really stepped in your own poop this time. That last statement is so hyprocritical it’s not even funny.
How can you ask that we consider the possibility that god exists, when you yourself refuse to consider the possibility that god does not exist?
Are you reading this forum or just gleaning what you want from it? There are several people in here who started out believing the possibilty that god existed. They were believers to start with. Now through rational and logical thinking they have come to the conclusion that god does no exist.
We are not starting with a negative assumption, we are using real facts based on reality, not belief in fantasy. Take the story of Noah or how humanity started with just Adam and Eve and only two sons. Reality and science both say you cannot create enough diversity in the gene pool to support those stories. It collapses in on itself. Why do you think you can’t marry your sister? Because we know through science that it creates deformities and disease. The DNA is to similar and corrupts itself during reproduction. This has even occured in total strangers who happened to have DNA so similar they were unable to have children. Through DNA analysis it was determined that they were just like a brother and sister, yet from completely different bloodlines. It just isn’t possible to get DNA to overcome this very important function of needing to create diversity.
When you can accept the possibility that your bible is nothing more than a book of stories, totally unsupported by science, and history, then maybe you can finally accept the reality we all know to be true.
ionfield,
Fascinating. I wonder in what other areas of life you are also convinced there are no possibilities.
So if you are certain beyond any doubt that there is absolutely and positively no possibility of something, I assume you have a pretty solid basis for such a belief.
I’m sorry, but from here it appears to be more like a denial of the obvious for personal reasons rather than a tenable position. I do not think anyone can credibly argue against such an obvious possibility. If you do, then you are in effect proposing that you know something that cannot be known (at least at this point in time.) If you make this claim, then you would be the first human with this ability!
I will also answer your question. Of course it is possible God doesn’t exist. To say otherwise would be untenable. I am stating clearly that it is my belief that God does exist and I wish others here would just stand up, be proud of their beliefs and be willing to discuss the aspects of their beliefs in an open an honest fashion.
Tim,
I couldn’t help but notice in your response to ionfield your use of the word “obvious”. What is it you think is so obvious you are compelled to believe?
Tim,
Other areas of life that I am also convinced there are no possibilities are belief in the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy. (Although, I?m not yet sure about Santa Clause.) These too have as much credence as your imaginary, mythological god.
I?m the first human with this ability? Golly, I just might be the second coming of Christ.
Tim, are you saying that you also believe in the possibility that the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy do exist? (Let?s keep Santa Clause out of this argument.)
manumit,
What is obvious and self-evident is the possibility that God exists.
Despite the silly references to the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause which I covered previously in another thread, any serious contemplation of man’s existence postulates the existence of God. People are free to use that as a departure point for debate and often do.
Now, another thing that’s obvious is that given our human abilities, it is not possible to prove scientifically that God either exists or does not exist. Thus we are left with opinion, conjecture, rationalization, prognostication, reason, or just good old-fashioned belief.
What some people won’t admit is that it is simply a belief on their part that God doesn’t exist. They want to wrap it in some kind of scientific reasoning, but it doesn’t work – it’s still a belief or opinion on their part.
Tim,
To seriously ponder (to use a better word) about man’s existence should not postulate the existence of god. Because that merely starts out thinking that it is true.
Postulate: 1.) to assume to be true, real, etc. especially as a basis for argument 2.) to take for granted.
Once again, you assume it is true from the beginning. This should not be the basis of serious thought about man’s existence. You can not start out with assumptions. You must start with no assumptions, formulate a theorem, and use the facts to reach a conclusion. You will never accept the facts if you are postulating god from the beginning.
Do I accept the possibilty that god exists. NO. (add my name to the list of firsts)
Do I accept that there is a possibility that something connects the universe in a way we do not yet understand. Yes. However, that is rooted in science. Gravity, electricity, magnetism, quantum physics etc. Natural forces not yet completely understood by man, as of yet. However, the more we learn about these things the better we understand them and, will eventually figure out how the universe is connected and interacts.
So, postulate all you want and get nowhere. The rest of us will ponder the universe and through science understand it’s true nature.
manumit,
To put all your faith in your own abilities and that of science to discover and understand everything is a much bigger leap of faith than I’ve made.
To deny the possible existence of God is to remain deliberately blind by choice. Of course, humans have a free will so each of us makes our own.
Tim,
?To deny the possible existence of God is to remain deliberately blind by choice.?
You haven?t yet said whether or not you also believe in the possibility that the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy do exist. Also your reasoning for or against that belief. These are equally plausible theories as your belief in a god.
You may think it silly to postulate the existence of these characters, but it is no sillier to us than for you to postulate the existence of an imaginary, mythical god.
So come on Tim, let?s keep an open mind and not be deliberately blind during this dialogue.
Tim,
In response to your post in the terrorist thread. (I will post this response there as well.)
You have some serious misconceptions about how we approach the bible. I don’t think any of us would deny the ability of the bible to show morality in humans. You don’t have to be a believer, or have a teacher, to understand that. We just don’t see the need to place that morality as being given to us by a god. We don’t have to fear for our lives (or afterlife) in order to be moral. We do so because it makes sense. What goes around comes around. If we do bad things, eventually someone will do bad things to us because of our behavior. If we try to be moral then it is less likely someone will do bad things to us. That doesn’t mean bad things won’t happen anyway, that’s just part of living on this planet. We can’t control everything, but we can learn to understand it using logic and reasoning (science).
The bible IS, after all, a book of stories showing how humans can be moral or amoral of their own free will. So do a lot of fairy tales and other stories throughout history that were written by man. Just like the bible is written by man. (Present tense intended. Does anyone know when the newest version is supposed to come out? I’m anxious to see what changes they made this time.) That’s why we put it in the same category.
It also shows that it was necessary to convince people that there was more at stake for being amoral in order to get them to do the good things. We as humans have evolved past that (some of us anyway). It’s called a better education. To continue believing that everything that happens in our lives is guided by a god is archaic. We have found the answers as to why certain things happen and they don’t involve the hand of god, just natural forces taking their course.
You’re the one who is on the dead-end path because you would rather believe than seek the truth about what is going on all around us. You are stuck in an endless cycle because you refuse to let go of your fears and allow logic and reasoning to show you the truth.
Now, on to your response to me.
You can call it a leap of faith if you want. I call it determination to seek the truth without being hindered by archaic views and a fear of the unknown.
By seeking the truth and not allowing myself to be hindered by those archaic views and fears, I am opening my eyes to a whole new set of possibilities. You are the one who is blinded by faith. Not wanting to let go out of fear that it is possible there is more to it than just a god. After all, isn’t that why they call it blind faith? The only way to remain faithful to god is to be blind.
ionfield,
As I said, I have covered the “Easter Bunny” subject at length in either this or another thread on this blog. I’ve answered the question.
I don’t feel the need to cut and paste it now, just go check it out. I believe I was responding to David Silverman who posed the same question.
Aww… did I miss an Easter Bunny question?
By popular request, a new thread has been added as a continuation of this one, just for convenience. I saw a break in posts, so now is a good time.
See you all there!
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