This thread is dedicated to debate with theists. Got questions? Got answers? Got time? Go here!
This thread is dedicated to debate with theists. Got questions? Got answers? Got time? Go here!
Since 1963, AMERICAN ATHEISTS has been the premier organization laboring for the civil liberties of Atheists, and the total, absolute separation of government and religion.
Copyright 2012. All materials contained on this site, whether written, audible or visual are the exclusive property of American Atheists.
I’ve never asked Atheists to prove there isn’t a God. In an earlier post I said, “Proof or evidence of God isn’t the issue, it’s whether one can say with any certainty at all that God doesn’t exist.”
Further, believers are under no obligation to prove the existence of God any more than Atheists are to prove there isn’t. We can agree that we aren’t going to be able to anyway.
So where does that leave us? In the realm of beliefs, my friends. You have yours and I have mine and that’s O.K.
Here’s my “one-liner.”
A belief that something doesn’t exist cannot alter the possibility it actually does exist.
Tim,
You are too funny!
Some may wonder what I am really after here.
All I want is for people to admit what they know is true: that there is a possibility God exists. I have no problem with people believing what they want, or simply choosing not to believe in anything. But as I have stated previously, if you start with a negative assumption, a discussion never gets anywhere. A logical or rational way to approach an unknown is to first admit the obvious possibilities.
Once that happens, open and honest dialogue can occur. Now if anyone is willing to do this, then we will have a proper starting point for discussing issues related to faith.
Tim,
Sorry; as far as I’m concerned, there is absolutely no possibility that God exists. There is positively no doubt in my mind.
Do you admit that there is a possibility that God does not exist?
Tim,
You really stepped in your own poop this time. That last statement is so hyprocritical it’s not even funny.
How can you ask that we consider the possibility that god exists, when you yourself refuse to consider the possibility that god does not exist?
Are you reading this forum or just gleaning what you want from it? There are several people in here who started out believing the possibilty that god existed. They were believers to start with. Now through rational and logical thinking they have come to the conclusion that god does no exist.
We are not starting with a negative assumption, we are using real facts based on reality, not belief in fantasy. Take the story of Noah or how humanity started with just Adam and Eve and only two sons. Reality and science both say you cannot create enough diversity in the gene pool to support those stories. It collapses in on itself. Why do you think you can’t marry your sister? Because we know through science that it creates deformities and disease. The DNA is to similar and corrupts itself during reproduction. This has even occured in total strangers who happened to have DNA so similar they were unable to have children. Through DNA analysis it was determined that they were just like a brother and sister, yet from completely different bloodlines. It just isn’t possible to get DNA to overcome this very important function of needing to create diversity.
When you can accept the possibility that your bible is nothing more than a book of stories, totally unsupported by science, and history, then maybe you can finally accept the reality we all know to be true.
ionfield,
Fascinating. I wonder in what other areas of life you are also convinced there are no possibilities.
So if you are certain beyond any doubt that there is absolutely and positively no possibility of something, I assume you have a pretty solid basis for such a belief.
I’m sorry, but from here it appears to be more like a denial of the obvious for personal reasons rather than a tenable position. I do not think anyone can credibly argue against such an obvious possibility. If you do, then you are in effect proposing that you know something that cannot be known (at least at this point in time.) If you make this claim, then you would be the first human with this ability!
I will also answer your question. Of course it is possible God doesn’t exist. To say otherwise would be untenable. I am stating clearly that it is my belief that God does exist and I wish others here would just stand up, be proud of their beliefs and be willing to discuss the aspects of their beliefs in an open an honest fashion.
Tim,
I couldn’t help but notice in your response to ionfield your use of the word “obvious”. What is it you think is so obvious you are compelled to believe?
Tim,
Other areas of life that I am also convinced there are no possibilities are belief in the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy. (Although, I?m not yet sure about Santa Clause.) These too have as much credence as your imaginary, mythological god.
I?m the first human with this ability? Golly, I just might be the second coming of Christ.
Tim, are you saying that you also believe in the possibility that the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy do exist? (Let?s keep Santa Clause out of this argument.)
manumit,
What is obvious and self-evident is the possibility that God exists.
Despite the silly references to the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause which I covered previously in another thread, any serious contemplation of man’s existence postulates the existence of God. People are free to use that as a departure point for debate and often do.
Now, another thing that’s obvious is that given our human abilities, it is not possible to prove scientifically that God either exists or does not exist. Thus we are left with opinion, conjecture, rationalization, prognostication, reason, or just good old-fashioned belief.
What some people won’t admit is that it is simply a belief on their part that God doesn’t exist. They want to wrap it in some kind of scientific reasoning, but it doesn’t work – it’s still a belief or opinion on their part.
Tim,
To seriously ponder (to use a better word) about man’s existence should not postulate the existence of god. Because that merely starts out thinking that it is true.
Postulate: 1.) to assume to be true, real, etc. especially as a basis for argument 2.) to take for granted.
Once again, you assume it is true from the beginning. This should not be the basis of serious thought about man’s existence. You can not start out with assumptions. You must start with no assumptions, formulate a theorem, and use the facts to reach a conclusion. You will never accept the facts if you are postulating god from the beginning.
Do I accept the possibilty that god exists. NO. (add my name to the list of firsts)
Do I accept that there is a possibility that something connects the universe in a way we do not yet understand. Yes. However, that is rooted in science. Gravity, electricity, magnetism, quantum physics etc. Natural forces not yet completely understood by man, as of yet. However, the more we learn about these things the better we understand them and, will eventually figure out how the universe is connected and interacts.
So, postulate all you want and get nowhere. The rest of us will ponder the universe and through science understand it’s true nature.
manumit,
To put all your faith in your own abilities and that of science to discover and understand everything is a much bigger leap of faith than I’ve made.
To deny the possible existence of God is to remain deliberately blind by choice. Of course, humans have a free will so each of us makes our own.
Tim,
?To deny the possible existence of God is to remain deliberately blind by choice.?
You haven?t yet said whether or not you also believe in the possibility that the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy do exist. Also your reasoning for or against that belief. These are equally plausible theories as your belief in a god.
You may think it silly to postulate the existence of these characters, but it is no sillier to us than for you to postulate the existence of an imaginary, mythical god.
So come on Tim, let?s keep an open mind and not be deliberately blind during this dialogue.
Tim,
In response to your post in the terrorist thread. (I will post this response there as well.)
You have some serious misconceptions about how we approach the bible. I don’t think any of us would deny the ability of the bible to show morality in humans. You don’t have to be a believer, or have a teacher, to understand that. We just don’t see the need to place that morality as being given to us by a god. We don’t have to fear for our lives (or afterlife) in order to be moral. We do so because it makes sense. What goes around comes around. If we do bad things, eventually someone will do bad things to us because of our behavior. If we try to be moral then it is less likely someone will do bad things to us. That doesn’t mean bad things won’t happen anyway, that’s just part of living on this planet. We can’t control everything, but we can learn to understand it using logic and reasoning (science).
The bible IS, after all, a book of stories showing how humans can be moral or amoral of their own free will. So do a lot of fairy tales and other stories throughout history that were written by man. Just like the bible is written by man. (Present tense intended. Does anyone know when the newest version is supposed to come out? I’m anxious to see what changes they made this time.) That’s why we put it in the same category.
It also shows that it was necessary to convince people that there was more at stake for being amoral in order to get them to do the good things. We as humans have evolved past that (some of us anyway). It’s called a better education. To continue believing that everything that happens in our lives is guided by a god is archaic. We have found the answers as to why certain things happen and they don’t involve the hand of god, just natural forces taking their course.
You’re the one who is on the dead-end path because you would rather believe than seek the truth about what is going on all around us. You are stuck in an endless cycle because you refuse to let go of your fears and allow logic and reasoning to show you the truth.
Now, on to your response to me.
You can call it a leap of faith if you want. I call it determination to seek the truth without being hindered by archaic views and a fear of the unknown.
By seeking the truth and not allowing myself to be hindered by those archaic views and fears, I am opening my eyes to a whole new set of possibilities. You are the one who is blinded by faith. Not wanting to let go out of fear that it is possible there is more to it than just a god. After all, isn’t that why they call it blind faith? The only way to remain faithful to god is to be blind.
ionfield,
As I said, I have covered the “Easter Bunny” subject at length in either this or another thread on this blog. I’ve answered the question.
I don’t feel the need to cut and paste it now, just go check it out. I believe I was responding to David Silverman who posed the same question.
Aww… did I miss an Easter Bunny question?
By popular request, a new thread has been added as a continuation of this one, just for convenience. I saw a break in posts, so now is a good time.
See you all there!
my prescriptions online discount
In your free time, take a look at some relevant information on Pet NO PRESCRIPTION Medication Online
mastercard
Please take a look at some information about mastercard loan calculator bad credit loans
project management
…